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Persian: آقا و آغا

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by seitt, Apr 27, 2013.

  1. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Greetings

    To sum up what we have established so far, I quote the one-volume Āryānpur Progressive Persian-English Dictionary:

    آقا = sir, lord, chief, leader, master, boss; Mr., Mister, Esq., Esquire, Agha

    آغا = lady, dame; eunuch, title of a eunuch

    Please could you give some examples from history etc. of the use of آغا as part of the name of a lady, and also as part of the name of a eunuch? Please indicate all final kasres.

    Also, are these two words pronounced exactly the same in Persian today?

    Best wishes, and many thanks,

    Simon
     
  2. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    The most famous example of آغا is probably in the name of آغاباجی a high rank wife of فتحعلی شاه (his mother's name was also آغاباجی). If I'm not wrong باجی bacı means "sister" in Turkish.
    However, it seems I was wrong in the case of آغا محمد خان in the other thread. In Dehkhoda, it says آغا is also used for eunuchs. I'd thought that people used آغا to make fun of him. However, I don't think he liked it.

    You can find other examples in related Dehkhoda's page.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2013
  3. C'est un archaïsme ! il ne s'utilise plus de nos jours.
    یک واژه کهنه و منسوخه ! دیگه کاربردی در زبان امروزی نداره
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2013
  4. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    If it is of any help, this is what the two words mean in Urdu. You will appreciate that the usage of Persian words in Urdu is somewhat conservative and on the whole older meanings are preserved.

    aaqaa: employer, lord, master, owner (aaqaa-o-maulaa: master, Lord/God)

    aaGhaa: (archaic) title of respect for a chieftan (noun); as courtesy title; respected, venerable

    baajii in Urdu means sister.
     
  5. SamiraFrancophile

    SamiraFrancophile Senior Member

    Tehran
    persian
    and about the pronouncation:
    yes, their pronounce is the same in Persian.
     
  6. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    These words are indeed pronounced the same in most Persian dialects of Iran, but they are distinguished in the Persian of Afghanistan. Etymologically, they are the same word (the Turkish title ağa), but they have taken on different usages.
     
  7. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Many thanks, super!
     
  8. darush Senior Member

    You mean that غ and ق are different in pronunciation in Persian of Afghanistan?
     
  9. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Yes, aaqaa-ye-darush. In Afghanistan, Persian speakers pronounce Gh and q distinctly, as in Qur'an Arabic.
     
  10. darush Senior Member

    Oh, I didn't know it before! Are you sure?
     
  11. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    100.01%!
     
  12. darush Senior Member

    Thank you!
     
  13. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    Not only in Afghanistan, but also some parts of Iran the pronunciation is different. I'm sure about some dialects of Khuzestan. I've been also informed that in Mashhadi accent the pronunciation differs though I've never heard it myself.
     
  14. SamiraFrancophile

    SamiraFrancophile Senior Member

    Tehran
    persian
    ِDo you exactly know which accent in Khuzestan pronounce it differently?
     
  15. SamiraFrancophile

    SamiraFrancophile Senior Member

    Tehran
    persian
    would you please write their IPA pronounciation?
     
  16. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    In Kabul ق is /q/, and غ is /γ/. So you have /ɒqɒ/ and /ɒγɒ/.
     
  17. SamiraFrancophile

    SamiraFrancophile Senior Member

    Tehran
    persian
    thank you very much.
     
  18. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    Behbahani dialect (that is my own, though it has different accents within the vicinity). I had a Dezfuli friend who distinguished between the sounds but I can't generalise her pronunciation as Dezfuli dialect. An Ahvazi friend of mine (also with Dezfuli background) distinguished between ق and غ, however, he might have been influenced by Ahvazi Arabs.
     
  19. SamiraFrancophile

    SamiraFrancophile Senior Member

    Tehran
    persian
    Thank you Treaty. I asked it because we have some relatives from Khuzestan (Dezful and Ahwaz) and none of them differs between /q/, and/γ/ .
    As you said may be he is influenced by Arabs.
     
  20. rc2 Junior Member

    US
    India - Telugu
    I have just been informed by QP-saahib that providing links to YT is not allowed in this forum.. My original reply here was that I have heard a modern/young poetess from Tehran who does distinguish between her "qaaf" and "Ghain" -- but having heard her only in a recital setting (mush'aira), I was wondering if the pronunciation was deliberate based on the event - and whether modern Persian simply dispenses with the distinction completely.

    RC

    PS: Sorry for having posted a YT link here, I have edited my post completely so as to remove the offending link.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
  21. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    Actually, my family also lived in a part of Behbahan which was populated by Arab-based immigrants about two centuries ago. I think Mashhad also have an Arab neighbourhood around the Haram.
     

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