Persian and Urdu: عذوبت

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by panjabigator, May 10, 2010.

  1. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    Greetings,

    I cannot locate "عذوبت" in any Urdu dictionary (21st Century nor Platts). I found it in the following Persian Iqbal couplet:
    Granted, I know that every Persian word isn't necessarily an Urdu word, but I guess I didn't expect to prove that as true. Have any of you seen this word used in Urdu poetry/prose or (doubtful), speech?

    Here is the Hayyim entry (not in Steinglass), for those who are interested.

    Grateful as always,
    PG
     
  2. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    3uZuubat عُذُوبَت= sweetness مٹھاس miThaas ; pleasantness, agreeability.

    Originally it is from the Arabic root: ع-ذ-ب – the same root that gives us 3aZaab عذاب!
    Verb: 3aZubaعَذُبَ = to be sweet, pleasant, agreeable.

    In Arabic it is written as عُذوبَةbut as it came into Urdu via Persian, it became عُذُوبَت

    So perhaps we can translate the verse as:

    گرچہ اردو در عذوبت شکر است
    لیک پارسی ام ز هندی شیرینتر است

    Though Urdu in
    pleasantness is like sugar
    But my Farsi is sweeter than Hindi

    He seems to be admitting that his Hindi was not much to go on.
     
  3. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    Is he inferring that Hindi and Urdu are the same then? That's how I read the comparison.

    Also, could you find this word in any Urdu dictionary? Would an Urdu speaker understand this word?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2010
  4. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    As I understand it, what he seems to say is that he is eloquent in Urdu and has a better command of Persian than Hindi. I assume here he meant shuddh Hindi, given that colloquial Hindi has much overlap with Urdu so would not have been a problem for him.

    Yes, it is in my Naseem ul Lughaat Urdu-Urdu dictionary. A better educated Urdu speaker should, especially one with a grounding in Arabic. For the rest, it is hard to say. It all depends really as to what company they keep, books they read etc.
     
  5. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    Thanks for this. I need to get a hold of this dictionary!
     
  6. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I will have to disagree with Faylasoof Sahib here.

    گرچہ اردو در عذوبت شکر است
    لیک پارسی ام ز هندی شیرینتر است

    Iqbal

    Here, in the second line by Hindi, he means nothing but the language referred to in the first line.

    Though Urdu is sweet as sugar
    Still my Persian is sweeter than it.

    Here Iqbal was defending his adopting Persian instead of Urdu as a vehicle for his poetry and philosophy. It is worth noting that he only wrote in Urdu, Persian, English (and some letters in German). He did not write any "Hindi" although he was well versed in Sanskrit.

    It would not make any sense if it meant..

    But my Persian is sweeter than Hindi (as the National Language of India).

    This is not the place to discuss this but the word Hindii (along with Hindvii/ReKhtah) have been used in the past by Urdu writers to mean Urdu.

    Here, there is a contrast being made between the language of Paars= Paarsii and the language of Hind = Hindii*

    Though in sweetness Urdu is like sugar
    Still my Persian is sweeter than my Indian [language]

    * Also, Hindii as in "Hindii haiN ham vatan hai HindustaaN hamaaraa"

    We are Indians. Our homeland is Hindustaan..
     
  7. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi

    You have a right to your opinion! Others I talked to would disagree!

    I know all this! Not only did he not write anything in Hindi, he also wrote nothing in Punjabi, his mother tongue.

    Yes, this is not the place to discuss the issue in any detail, but Iqbal had a bias towards Urdu because he did consider it sweeter than the kind of Hindi that was being imposed / championed by some. And at that time it was still not one of the two official languages of India. That came after independence - well after 3allaamah Saheb's death!

    Though the alternate names of hindavii / riixtah for Urdu are well-known, they fell out of common use long before Iqbal. Besides, he wans't using hindi here to mean urdu. As I said above, by hindi he was referring to a certain kind of language

    A rather banal translation! Depending on how diplomatic or otherwise one wishes to be, one can always say that he was being a little naughty by contrasting Urdu (and its Persian heritage) with the new, highly Sanskritised Hindi. Again, this is not the place to go deeper into this discussion.
    This is nothing new! MiaN, we have discussed the use of the word hindii - generic and specific - elsewhere!
     
  8. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I will have to disagree with Faylasoof Sahib here.

    گرچہ اردو در عذوبت شکر است
    لیک پارسی ام ز هندی شیرینتر است

    Iqbal

    Here, in the second line by Hindi, he means nothing but the language referred to in the first line.

    Though Urdu is sweet as sugar
    Still my Persian is sweeter than it.



    You have a right to your opinion! Others I talked to would disagree!

    Here Iqbal was defending his adopting Persian instead of Urdu as a vehicle for his poetry and philosophy. It is worth noting that he only wrote in Urdu, Persian, English (and some letters in German). He did not write any "Hindi" although he was well versed in Sanskrit.

    I know all this! Not only did he not write anything in Hindi, he also wrote nothing in Punjabi, his mother tongue.

    This is nothing new! MiaN, we have discussed the use of the word hindii - generic and specific - elsewhere!

    You are of course right. We are all entitled to our opinions and my explanation could very well be wrong. We are all human. But you would also agree that no one and I mean no one, has a monopoly over knowledge. There is always somebody who might not only know more but he might also be right!

    True, Iqbal did not write in his native Punjabi. A great number if not most most Punjabi Urdu poets and prose writers did not write in their mother tongue. The reasons for this need not be discussed here but I am sure you would know these anyway. In my attempt to convey Hindii= Indian (language) and Hindii= Indian (people), there was no intention to say anything "profound". So, if it came across as banal, then that's what it was. Sorry to have disappointed you in not being able to include anything "new" for you.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2011
  9. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    janaab QP SaHeb,

    No one here is claiming any monopoly of knowledge! All of us have a right to express our views politely but at the same time openly and with force and conviction. Nothing wrong with that! Some of the things I say are after due consultation with others, e.g. those family elders who actually knew 3allamah SaHeb and over the years through them came to know his views and in turn their views of him.
     
  10. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Faylasoof SaaHib. It may interest you to know that PG SaaHib has misquoted the shi3r. The actual shi3r is:

    garchih hindii dar 3uzuubat shakkar ast
    tarz-i-guftaar-i-darii shiiriiN-tar ast

    And you most certainly would know what is meant by Hindi here. This shi3r has been mentioned (quoted?) by Shamsur Rahman Faruqi in his Early Urdu Literary Culture and History published by OUP in 2001.
    (P23, footnote 4)

    http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00fwp/srf/earlyurdu/srf_earlyurdu.html

    Please see page 2 of this link (ek bhaashaa jo mustarad kar dii ga'ii-az Professor Khalil Ahmad Beg).

    http://www.urduweb.org/mehfil/threads/ا-یـک-بـھـاشـا-جو-مسترد-کر-دی-گئی-از-مرزا-خلیل-احمد-بیگ.9881/

    لیکن اس بات کے وافر شواہد موجود ہیں کہ نہ صرف انیسویں صدی کی ابتدا تک بلکہ پوری انیسویں صدی کے دوران زبانِ اُردو کے لیے ’اُردو ‘ نام کے علاوہ ’ہندی‘ نام بھی مستعمل رہا ہے، بلکہ اقبالؔ نے تو بیسویں صدی کے اوائل میں بھی اپنی فارسی مثنوی ’اسرارِ خودی" میں اُردو کے لیے ہندی نام استعمال کیاہے"

    گرچہ ہندی در عذوبت شکر است
    طرزِ گفتارِ دری شیر یں تراست

    (یہاں ’’ہندی ‘‘ سے مراد اُردو اور ’’دری ‘‘ سے فارسی مرادہے۔ )

    "But there is ample evidence for this, not only up to the beginning of the nineteenth century but also during the whole of the nineteenth century, that in addition to Urdu the name "Hindi" has been used for Urdu language. In fact Iqbal has used the name "Hindi" even (as late as) in the early part of the twentieth century in his Farsi masnavii "Asraar-i-xudii".

    garchih Hindi dar 3uzuubat shakkar ast
    tarz-i-guftaar-i-darii shiiriin-tar ast

    What is meant by "Hindi" here is "Urdu" and by "Dari", Farsi."

     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2012
  11. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    I do not have access to an edition of Iqbal's poetry, but I must confirm that the version quoted in no. 10 scans correctly, whereas in the version cited by Panjabigator the second misra' does not scan.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2012
  12. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you for the correct scansion aspect. Here is a comprehensive site on Iqbal's Urdu, Persian and English works. http://www.allamaiqbal.com/ The couplet in question is in the "tamhiid" of "asraar-i-xudii", towards the bottom of the page.
     
  13. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    So let us agree on this:

    گرچه هندی در عذوبت شکر است
    طرزِ گفتارِ دری شیریںتراست

    garči hindī dar ʻuzūbat šakkar ast
    ṭarz i guftār i darī šīrīntar ast

    “Although ‘Hindi’ is (like) sugar in sweetness
    the embroidery of ‘Dari’ speech is (even) sweeter.”

    darī, literally ‘(language) of the court’, is an old synonym for ‘Persian’. What the author means is obviously that Indian~Hindi~Hindustani~Urdu is sweet, but Persian is even sweeter.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2012
  14. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I agree with your interpretation and darii (for زبان دری zabaan-e-darii) is indeed another name for Persian. Here is an interesting write up!

    Of course in Urdu, darii has other meanings too, here and here!

    BTW, we pronounce شکر both in our Farsi and Urdu as shakar and not shakkar!
     
  15. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    I know that. But here the metre requires a long syllable, so the k is pronounced with tashdiid. This is a well-known poetic license in classical Persian.
     
  16. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    QP Sahib, thanks for correcting the verse. I wish I remember where I found the quotation.
     
  17. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Qureshpor SaaHib, I share your interpretation concerning the words ''hindii'' and ''darii''. As a matter of fact it has been correct from the very beginning. Although 'hindii' to mean 'urdu' has receeded from the usage very long time ago (certainly more than a 100 years), its usage in the poetry, and especially in the Persian language, doesn't come over as something surprising.
     

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