Persian and Urdu: khor/khord-o-nosh

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Alfaaz, Feb 7, 2012.

  1. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    Background:
    Recently, in response to this thread, I wrote the following: "ashyaa"; "ashyaa-e-khor-o-nosh" supplies/things of eating and drinking.

    I will be quoting from PM's below and hope that BP won't mind(have edited the quotes to include only those that pertain to this thread)!

    BelligerentPacifist suggested the following:

    My reply:
    BelligerentPacifist's suggestion/reply:
    My reply again:

    Question: So, is it khor-o-nosh or khord-o-nosh? Which one is correct? (This was probably discussed in a thread a long time ago...)

    Khord-o-nosh definitely seems to be what's common in Urdu (and probably Persian) right now....

    (Probably shouldn't be saying this, but sometimes one wonders if members on this forum might be famous celebrities/poets (in disguise))....?!?!! If not they should be, for the immense amount of knowledge they possess and share with others! شکریہ ! خدا حافظ!
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2012
  2. searcher123

    searcher123 Senior Member

    My home ;-) /The Persian Gulf
    Farsi/Persian/فارسي
    in Persian we will say لوازم خوردن و نوشيدن.
     
  3. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    Thanks for replying! I'm guessing that is for Modern Persian...? What about Classical? Could it have changed from khor to khord (because khor is also used as in aadam-khor, sheer-khuar, rishwat-khor, etc.)...?
     
  4. searcher123

    searcher123 Senior Member

    My home ;-) /The Persian Gulf
    Farsi/Persian/فارسي
    Yes, it is. Also you can change نوشيدن to آشاميدن too.
     
  5. BP. Senior Member

    Karachi
    Urdu
    Thanks for floating the thread Alfaaz.
     
  6. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Iqbal knew a thing or two about Persian.

    [​IMG]

    yih 3aalam yih butxaanah-i-chashm-o-gosh
    jahaaN zindagii hai faqat xurd-o-nosh

    Iqbal

    ای روزه داران! عواقب وخيم زياده روی در خورد و نوش در دين و دنيا بر شخص عاقل پوشيده نيست، علاوه بر آنکه گذشت اين زياده روی تنبلی و کاهلی را بار آورده، مانع تفکير درست شده، سختی و قساوت قلب، امراض، بر انگيختن انگيزه های شر و بدی ها و تسلط شيطان را باعث ميشود.

    http://eslahonline.net/26291

    aadaab-i-xvurd-o-nosh - آداب خورد و نوش

    http://www.islamtape.com/Printable.php?ArticleID=595

    Here is an entry from Dehxodaa:

    زنج . [ زَ ن َ ] (ع مص ) سخت تشنه گردیدن . (ناظم الاطباء). فراهم آمدن امعاء کسی از تشنگی چنانکه از خور و نوش زائد باز ماند. (از اقرب الموارد). || تشنه گردیدن شتر دفعه به دفعه و تنگ شدن شکم آن . (از اقرب الموارد). رجوع به ماده ٔ بعد شود.

    From Platts:

    P خور ḵẖẉur, ḵẖor (act. part. of ḵẖẉurdan; rt. Zend qar; S. svad), part. adj. & s.m. Eating, drinking; devouring;—eater, devourer (used in comp., e.g. ḥalāl-ḵẖor, q.v.s.v. ḥalāl;—mardum-ḵẖẉur, 'Man-devouring');—s.m. Eating, food:—ḵẖẉur-o-posh, s.m. Food and raiment:—ḵẖẉur-o-nosh, s.m. Meat and drink.

    kabhii ashk piinaa kabhii ranj khaanaa
    yahii 3ishq meN hai xor-o-nosh apnaa

    NaasiKh

    So, both are used!
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2012
  7. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    What an astute observation! I too think that the "gumnaam" lakhnavii poet Faylasoof SaaHib has quoted a couple of times is most likely to be Faylasoof SaaHib himself!!

    banaa kar faqiiroN kaa ham bhes Ghalib
    tamaashaa-i-ahl-i-karam dekhte haiN!
     
  8. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    (Isse tareef samjha jaaye ya tanz) Nice couplet! and could you Qureshpor be the Qureshpor SaaHib....:)
     
  9. UrduMedium Senior Member

    United States
    Urdu (Karachi)
    Interesting question. Feroz-ul-Lughaat Jaami3 seems to list only xor-o-nosh.

    I have also heard Javed Ghamidi, a religious scholar from Pakistan (who tends to be careful about his use of language), also refer to it as xor-o-nosh and mention specifically that xord-o-nosh is not accurate.

    I agree that xord-o-nosh is very popular though. I grew up with it too.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  10. Phosphorus Senior Member

    Kurdish
    "Khord-o nush" and "khor-o nush" could be synonymous. In the current Persian they do not occur that much, but the first parts, "khord" and "khor", are used as "khord-o khoraak" or, as in the informal language, "bokhor-o bekhaab" (< Sa'adi has "khwar-u khwaab tanhaa tariiqii dadast").

    But both of them may possess at least two different meanings with rather distinguished priorities:

    khord (past stem of "khordan"): 1. food 2. eating (since it is mainly used in combinations such as "khord-o khoraak" ~ "food")

    khor (present stem of "khordan"): 1. eating 2. food (since it is used mainly in combinations such as "bokhor-o bekhaab" ~ lit. "eating and sleeping" ~ "laziness").

    In terms of "nushiidan", "nush" can play the role of both present and past stems (I think it might be due to the fact that its infinitive form is attained through adding "-iidan" to "nush" as opposed to "khord-" which is a pure form attested in Old Iraninan languages, cf. Av. "h/xvart-"), accordingly "nush" itself means both "drinking" as well as "drink".

    So I personally infer that while "khord-o nush" can mean both "food and drink" and "eating and drinking", "khor-o nush" may mainly refer to "eating and drinking" (note that the exact sense of "nush" over here depends on the way we perceive "khord" and "khor").
     
  11. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Apart from xor-o-nosh, can Forum members think of other instances where two present stems are combined to form such compound words. We have past-past (aamad-o-raft), past-present (guft-o-guu) but are there many present-present?
     
  12. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Not exactly what is being requested since it is present-past, with negation: nest-o-nabuud. I'll think about present-present.
     
  13. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    If I gave an example, then I would answer my own question. I have a feeling there are very few such compounds.
     
  14. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    It would be kind of you to exercise some patience and give us some time because my mind, confronted with this kind of questions usually doesn't return any results when I'd like to have them! Most of the time
    they emerge spontaneously at unexpected moments!
     
  15. Phosphorus Senior Member

    Kurdish
    In Persian they happen rather sporadically, but I can for now recall "khwar-o khwaab" (modern "bokhor-o bekhaab"), "kiyaa biyaa", "giir-o daar", "keshaakesh", "khaah naakhaah" or maybe "begii nagii", "boro biyaa", "keshmakesh", "begiir-o beband".
     
  16. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you, aaqaa-ye-Phosphorous. Out of your list, I would say that "giir-o-daar" is the most convincing. Eating and sleeping are not related verbs (as are eating and drinking) and boro biyaa" are just two imperatives. Same applies for bi-giir-o-bi-band. I have never come across "keshaakesh". Is this supposed to be the same root repeated?

    The reason why I asked this question is that I was attempting to show that "xor-o-nosh" type is n't all that productive whereas puxt-o-paz, buud-o-baash (past-present) band-o-bast (present-past) and "xariid-o-faroxt" (past-past) are more productive. Therefore xurd-o-nosh, for me, is more likely and "correct" than xor-o-nosh.
     
  17. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    It would be "daar-o-giir'' in Urdu.
     
  18. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    This one has no izaafat but may be considered fitting the present-present pattern: fahm-daar.
     
  19. Phosphorus Senior Member

    Kurdish
    Welcome Qureshpor SaaHiib. To me "khwar-o khwaab" is a combination of related elements in terms of conveying the sense of "laziness" (such as "zad-o band" for "conspiracy"). "boro biyaa" or "begiir nagiir" are not exactly "imperative" forms, they actually mean "raftan-o aamadan" and "bakhtyaar budan-o bakhtyaar nabudan". I am not sure but I have the feeling that they are probably contaminated by Central Iranian dialects in which the present stems usually accept prefixes, an example of this borrowed by colloquial Tehrani Persian is "hiirii viirii" (< "hiigiir viigiir" ~ "giiriiften" ~ Per. "gereftan"). From a technical viewpoint all present stems, with or without a prefix, are considered to be originally "imperative" forms, nonetheless the meaning they convey may not be imperative any more in the aforesaid examples. Yes "keshaakesh" is a famous word from "keshiidan" ~ "to pull" being repeated.

    You are completely right about the past-past or past and present combinations being more widespread than the "present present" case, but it still does not conceive me in regard with favoring "khord-o nush" over "khor-o nush". I do not know maybe it is because I do not presently remember "khord" being used with another root (be it past or present) but a noun, "khord-o khoraak", while it is not the case for "khor": "khor-o khaab".

    By the way "bud-o baash" sounds strange to me and I have never heard "khariid-o forukht", but "khariid-o forush".
     
  20. UrduMedium Senior Member

    United States
    Urdu (Karachi)
    kashakash is also used in Urdu with the same meaning. In Urdu-Hindi, roughly synonymous to kheNch-taan.
     
  21. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Apart from "giir-o-daar"/"daar-o-giir", I can think of "soz-o-saaz" and "pech-o-taab". There is also "tag-o-dau". My point is that xurd-o-nosh type of formations are more numerous than xor-o-nosh type. For this reason I can not see the basis the Maulana would deem xurd-o-nosh wrong.
     
  22. Phosphorus Senior Member

    Kurdish
    Yes "piich-o taab" is also a good example, however they usually use "suxt-o saaz" instead of "suz-o saaz". For "tag-o daw" I am not sure whether the verb "tagiidan" is attested in either Middle Persian or New Persian or not? But I am sure "tag" itself stays there as a noun (also found in "paatak"), along with "daw" (nonetheless "daw-" is also the present stem for "dawedan" ~ "daviidan"). The original development of Old Iranian root "tak-" (where modern "tag" is derived from) is actually traceable in New Persian as "taaz-" and "taaxtan" ~ "taaziidan" (cf. Mazandarani "taj-" and Kurdish "tajh-").

    I have already confirmed your point about present-past or past-past prevalence bro. Nobody said "xord-o nush" is wrong, but I just inferred, based on the aforementioned clues, that there is no way to asseverate that "xord-o nush" is correcter than "xor-o nush", Qureshpor SaaHiib.
     
  23. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    (تگیدن . [ ت َ دَ ] (مص ) دوندگی کردن و این سوی و آن سوی رفتن . (ناظم الاطباء

    تگیدن tagīdan, To run to and fro, hither and thither.(Steingass)

    می ساختم چو بربط و می ساختم چو عود
    زیرا که چارۂ دل من سوز و ساز بود
    خواجو

    baraadar-i-giraamii. I was referring to a Maulana UrduMedium had mentioned.

     
  24. Phosphorus Senior Member

    Kurdish
    Thanks for the information about "tagiidan".

    I know about "suz-o saaz" occurring in Persian, I just pointed out the prevalence of "suxt-o saaz".

    I see, sorry Qureshpor SaaHiib I have the vaguest idea about Maylana UrduMedium.
     
  25. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Please see Post 9 and all will be crystal clear.
     

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