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Persian cognate of Avestan arashi

Discussion in 'Etymology, History of languages and Linguistics (EHL)' started by mojobadshah, Feb 8, 2014.

  1. mojobadshah Senior Member

    Is there a Persian cognate for arashi "poet priest" Sanskrit rishi?
     
  2. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    I haven't found any Persian cognate for it.
     
  3. mojobadshah Senior Member

    What about Per. rish "beard"?
     
  4. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    Persian š 'beard' is unrelated to Avestan ərəši-.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
  5. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    There is no Avestan word "arashi". Av. ərəš ‘rightly’ is cognate with NP rāst etc. Av. ərəši- ‘envy’ is cognate with NP rašk. There is no connection between the two.
     
  6. mojobadshah Senior Member

    Is ereshi "envy" related to ereshi "poet priest or bard". Z was an ereshi "bard".
     
  7. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    ^ ərəši- in the sense of ''priest-poet'' is mentioned in Yasna 31.5 and is of unknown etymology. Some propose it was a loanword into Proto Indo-Iranian.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2014
  8. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Yasna 31,5 (Ahunauuaitī Gāϑā). Whether ərəši- means ‘seer’ (Humbach) or ‘envy’ (Bartholomae) is debated, like everything in the Gathas.
     
  9. mojobadshah Senior Member

    Could envy be rage? ML West relates ereshi to Get. raisen "rage"
     
  10. mojobadshah Senior Member

    If it helps to find the Persian cognate M.L. West says ereshi is akin to German raisan/ rasen "to rage." OED says the following: race (n.1) [​IMG]"act of running," c.1300, from Old Norse ras "running, rush (of water)," cognate with Old English ræs "a running, a rush, a leap, jump; a storming, an attack;" or else a survival of the Old English word with spelling influenced by the Old Norse one. The Norse and Old English words are from Proto-Germanic *res- (cf. Middle Dutch rasen "to rave, rage," German rasen, Old English raesettan "to rage" (of fire)), from a variant form of PIE *ers- "be in motion" (see err). Originally a northern word, it became general in English c.1550. Meaning "act of running" is from early 14c. Meaning "contest of speed" first recorded 1510s.

    If I'm not mistaken the reason ereshi is related to Ger. rasen "to rave or rage" is because these poet-priests would consume psychadelics that would throw them into mantic, sometimes rough, trances.

    The PIE according to Joseph T. Shipley is *ergh and is related to a few interesting English cognates raise, run. Could the ereshi have had anything to do with the doctrine of the Resurrection? In the NT Jesus calls himself "the Rising Again."
     
  11. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    My point is simply that ərəši- occurs exactly once in the Avesta, in a very obscure passage. Nobody really knows what it means. In this circumstance it is not possible to propose a likely etymology.
     
  12. Dib Senior Member

    Germany
    Bengali (India)
    Can the second part of Xerxes's name be related with Skt. ṛṣi (as the Avestan term is obscure)?
    Xšaya-ṛšā / Xšayāršā
     
  13. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Rüdiger Schmitt (following Hoffmann et al.) writes:

    “Old Persian Xšaya-šā is a compound with the verbal stem xšaya- “ruling” as the first element and the n-stem noun *šan- “hero, man” as the second element; the original n-stem paradigm, however, is preserved only in the nominative form, whereas the other cases are remodeled analogically in one way or another (see Kent, p. 65a); with the primary meaning “ruling over heroes” it is close to Ved. kayád-vīra- “id.” with a similar formation.”

    http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/xerxes-1-name
     
  14. Dib Senior Member

    Germany
    Bengali (India)
    Thanks. But, how secure is this *šan- “hero, man”? Do we have other cognates or attestations?
     
  15. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    aršan- ‘man, hero, male animal’ is very common in the Avesta (see Bartholomae, AiWb 203), the regular Young Avestan reflex of *ṛšan- (Hoffmann, Aves. Laut- u. Flexionslehre 91); cf Gk ἄρσην, Ved. ṛṣabhá- ‘bull’.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2014
  16. Dib Senior Member

    Germany
    Bengali (India)
    Cool. Thanks!
     
  17. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    Monier Williams doesn't define ṛṣabhá as a 'steer' (castrated bull), but somewhat contrarily as 'a bull (as impregnating the flock)'. The latter meaning seems to work better when considering the Avestan evidence; a virile bull is more "heroic" than a castrated one.
     
  18. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    You are right. The word we need is English "bull" (German "Stier"). I have corrected it in no. 15.
     
  19. mojobadshah Senior Member

    M.L. West seems pretty confidant that ereshi is akin to Ger. raissan which is PIE ergh, but shiply groups ergh with *rei and *res and river is lumped with rave and rage. If I'm not mistaken Av. Urvan "soul" and NPer. Ravan shenasi "psychology" and Rohani "spiritual leader" are indirectly relate to Av. Ereshi.
     
  20. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    rūḥānī is Arabic.
     
  21. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    ML West is not a comparative linguist. He is a scholar of Greek, particularly Ancient Greek classics.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  22. mojobadshah Senior Member

    Check that. He translated the Gathas.
     
  23. mojobadshah Senior Member

    Wikipedia says its from Persian that's why I figured it was related to Persian ravan "psyche". On Pres. Rohanis wikipedia.
     
  24. mojobadshah Senior Member

  25. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    My colleague M L West is a very distinguished classicist. Many years ago he wrote a book about Indian parallels to the Greek philosophers. This was severely criticised at the time. It was pointed out in particular that he would never have tolerated anyone writing about Greek authors if that person did not know Greek, and asking how West could venture to write about Indian texts without knowing any Sanskrit. West took the criticism to heart and actually learned Sanskrit, and Avestan too. Recently he has published his translation of the Gathas. This too has been rather fiercely criticised by specialists in Iranian studies. West’s strong point is that he actually tries to make sense of the texts rather than just translating words at random (as some others have done). But sometimes he bends the meaning of the words just a bit too much. The Gathas do remain an extremely obscure work.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  26. mojobadshah Senior Member


    He also wrote a good book on PIE and IE Poetry and myth.

    Also in regards to the Avesta being an obscure text I have been familiar with it for over a decade and I have not noticed so many obscurities. We are still able to recognize the Zoroastrian contribution to the core of the Abrahamic faiths.
     

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