Persian: He thought himself better than others.

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by seitt, Apr 4, 2013.

  1. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Greetings

    First of all, please may I check that the Literary Persian for “He thought himself better than others.” is “خودش را بهتر از دیگران به حساب می‌آورد.”?

    Also, how can we say this is Colloquial Persian? In particular, what happens to the word دیگران?

    Best wishes, and many thanks,

    Simon
     
  2. searcher123

    searcher123 Senior Member

    My home ;-) /The Persian Gulf
    Farsi/Persian/فارسي
    ٌYour translation is correct. Also you can translate it as the follow formally:
    خودش را برتر از ديگران مي‌‌داند

    فكر مي‌كنه از دماغ فيل افتاده
    فكر مي‌كنه كي هست
    خودشو مي‌گذاره تاقچه بالا

    In colloquial, we will use بقيه instead of ديگران normally.
    خودشو سرتر/برتر/بهتر/بالاتر از بقيه مي‌دونه
     
  3. Aryamp

    Aryamp Persimod

    Tehran
    Persian
    I somehow prefer Searcher's variation over your original suggestion :

    خودش را برتر از دیگران می دانست = he thought himself better than others

    In colloquial speech دیگران is very naturally used, I wouldn't say بقیه is more common, but in colloquial accent دیگران is pronounced دیگرون sometimes.

    This same sentence in colloquial form would be :
    خودش رو بهتر از دیگران می دونست
     
  4. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Many thanks, truly most helpful.

    Re دیگران, do I understand that دیگه‌ها is wrong as a colloquial variant? Somehow, I would have expected دیگه‌ها, but if it's wrong it's wrong! Anyway, since دیگران is okay in Colloquial Persian there's no problem.

    Btw, what is the literal meaning of تاقچه بالا, please? Same as بالای تاقچه?
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  5. Aryamp

    Aryamp Persimod

    Tehran
    Persian
    Yes that's wrong, I understand where your expectation comes from though but that's just not how we say it.
     
  6. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Much obliged!
     
  7. Aryamp

    Aryamp Persimod

    Tehran
    Persian
    طاقچه بالا گذاشتن is a slang which is used when someone acts conceitedly or plays hard to get (specially after being asked or expected to do a favor)

    طاقچه means recess or niche in a wall and I'm guessing the more elevated recesses are used for more valuable stuff (it's more out of reach) so that's where this slang comes from, but I'm not sure though.

    In its slang form it's always طاقچه بالا and not بالای طاقچه which alters the meaning.(the top recess vs on the recess)
     
  8. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Many thanks – ah, is there a kasre there by any chance?
    I.e. طاقچه‌ی بالا) طاقچۀ بالا)?
     
  9. SamiraFrancophile

    SamiraFrancophile Senior Member

    Tehran
    persian
    Actually no, we pronounce it w/o Kasra when we use this expression.
     
  10. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Ah, much obliged.

    So, in this idiom there's no kasre, but what if we simply want to say "elevated recess" literally? Does it have kasre then?
     
  11. SamiraFrancophile

    SamiraFrancophile Senior Member

    Tehran
    persian
    Yes Seitt. If you use it in that case, it needs a Kasra. But please notice that in that case, because of two vowels adjacency (I mean ه at the end of تاقچه and Kasra which is called in linguistics تلاقي مصوتها يا برخورد واكه‌ها) the kasra changes to hamzeh.

    example:
    - كتابم رو كجا گذاشتي؟
    - گذاشتم تاقچهء بالايي.
     
  12. Aryamp

    Aryamp Persimod

    Tehran
    Persian
    That's not in fact a true همزه that's more like a یای میانجی it's only a matter of orthography that it's written like that. I mean the way it is pronounced is just like any other case where we add a ی between two vowels : Tâqche-y-e bâlâyi Darya-y-e bozorg

    Also it must be written in a small form above letter ه
    طاقچهٔ بالایی

    It is recommended however that such words should be written like this :
    طاقچه
    ی بالایی

    Which is closer to the way it's actually pronounced.
     
  13. SamiraFrancophile

    SamiraFrancophile Senior Member

    Tehran
    persian
    Yes, Arya. you are correct. Here is an example of واج ميانجي , in this case ياي ميانجي. َ
    unfortunately I didn't find it on my keyboard, so I used that one which is placed next to ه:rolleyes:

    َAbout two forms of writing, I'm not really sure which one has been selected by "Persian Academy", Do you know any thing about it?
     
  14. SamiraFrancophile

    SamiraFrancophile Senior Member

    Tehran
    persian
    Oh, and another thing....

    nowadays, it is recommended to write the words like طاقچه using ت instead ot ط
    (e.g. اتاق، بليت، افلاتون،تاقچه)
     
  15. Aryamp

    Aryamp Persimod

    Tehran
    Persian
    There seems to be a discrepancy between Ministry of Education and Persian Academy. Right now in schools they teach that ی must be written and not ء (see here) , even Persian academy at one point adopted the view that ی must be used instead of ء but later went back to the more wide spread usage. Nontheless the view of Persian Academy is that ء is not a Hamza but it's a short form of ی which is called یای همزه مانند or یای ابتر
    This is an interesting article which has accumulate different view points and comes to a conclusion in favor of یای کامل instead of یای ابتر
    I guess Persian Academy's ruling is a higher authority nevertheless the discrepancy between the two bodies has to be resolved one way or another.

    Yes you're right, the words without an arabic origin must not be written with ط (I write طاقچه اتاق امپراتور etc out of habit ,without having in mind the suggested spellings) but interestingly Persian Academy also sanctions طاق as the correct spelling where it means arch/roof and تاق where it means unique/odd.
    http://www.persianacademy.ir/fa/moxtar.aspx

    So I guess طاقچه is the recommended spelling.
     
  16. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Thank you so much for a truly scholarly contribution.
     

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