Persian: no matter how bad

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by seitt, Nov 26, 2012.

  1. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Greetings,

    Please, how do you say “no matter how bad (he is)”?

    My sentence for translation:
    According to Christianity and Shiite Islam too, anyone who truly repents of his wickedness can change for the better, no matter how bad he is.

    Best wishes, and many thanks,

    Simon
     
  2. searcher123

    searcher123 Senior Member

    My home ;-) /The Persian Gulf
    Farsi/Persian/فارسي
    مهم نيست چقدر بده!
    Albeit in your sentence it will be very better if we translate it as the follow:

    حتّي اگه غرق گناه باشه

    طبق باور مسيحيت و همچنين اسلام شيعه، هركه از خطاهاي خود واقعا توبه كند، پاك خواهد شد؛ حتّي اگر غرق گناه باشد
     
  3. aisha93

    aisha93 Senior Member

    Arabic/Persian(larestani)
    Can we also say: هر چند که بد باشد?
     
  4. searcher123

    searcher123 Senior Member

    My home ;-) /The Persian Gulf
    Farsi/Persian/فارسي
    Yes, you can. Albeit it will be very better if you use هر چقدر instead of هر چند.
     
  5. darush Senior Member

    طبق...هر چقدر هم که بد باشد پاک خواهد شد
    هرچقدر هم که بدی/گناه کرده باشد پاک خواهد شد....
     
  6. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Thank you all so much.

    Now, putting things together, if I may, how about this?
    طبق باور مسيحيت و همچنين اسلام شيعه، هركه از خطاهاي خود واقعا توبه كند، هر چقدر بد باشد، پاك خواهد شد

    Naturally, I realize that there are several ways of saying it, but I've deliberately aimed at minimalism here in order to provide myself with a simple structure I can commit to memory. Am I right in thinking that هم که, while lovely stylistically, is not strictly necessary?

    To Morteza:
    Very beautiful! Somehow it reminds me of this (from the Bible):
    اگر گناهان شما مثل ارغوان باشد مانند برف سفید خواهد شد
    Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow

    Just as food is stuck fast in the throat of a choking man, scarlet, being a permanent dye, is stuck fast or fixed forever in the cloth it dyes. And, just as the choking man can do nothing to remove the food from his own throat, the owner of the cloth can do nothing to remove the scarlet. But, nevertheless, all things are possible with God!
     
  7. aisha93

    aisha93 Senior Member

    Arabic/Persian(larestani)
    Thank you for replying.


    To searcher123:
    shouldn't the word باشد here be باشند ? since گناهان is a plural word?
    or are both correct?

    This is a great idiom, by the way, thank you seitt, your comments always have something of value.
     
  8. searcher123

    searcher123 Senior Member

    My home ;-) /The Persian Gulf
    Farsi/Persian/فارسي
    Your sentence is not wrong, but it is not so common and even fairly is strange too. Normally we will not use پاك شدن for بد بودن. It will be better if you use بخشيده شدن or مورد بخشش قرار گرفتن for بد بودن. Also I should say without هم كه your sentence is not so nice and is seeing as an incomplete sentence.

    The best equivalent for "scarlet" when it is used instead of a "sin" is سنگين or بزرگ. So I prefer to change your translation as the follow:

    هرچقدر هم ﴿كه﴾ گناهان شما سنگين/بزرگ باشد، همچون برف آب خواهد شد

    You can use باشند, but باشد is correct too. Because گناهان is suppose as a whole here. In other words, all the sins have seen as a single package, without any segregating between them.
     
  9. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    To aisha93:
    .العفو! استغفر الله
    (Here's hoping that استغفر الله is used in Arabic as it is in Turkish "Estağfurullah" - in fact I think I'll start an Arabic thread on it. Anyway, I mean it as "I ask pardon of God" - in Turkish it is a kind of anti-pride formula used when someone says something nice about you.)

    To searcher123:
    Thank you so much, all sorted now - I was just wondering about همچون برف آب خواهد شد - I see that you mean it without a kasre after برف or indeed after آب: "will melt like snow", but could it also be "همچون آب برف خواهد شد", "wil become like the water of (melted) snow? Again, I'll start a thread on this under the name "همچون آب برف خواهد شد".
     
  10. searcher123

    searcher123 Senior Member

    My home ;-) /The Persian Gulf
    Farsi/Persian/فارسي
    In Persian, استغفر الله in conversations is used as a sign of mockery and satire or objection. The real meaning of it is "چه حرفا مي‌زني!ا" or "اين چه حرفيه مي‌زني؟". For example:


    اوّلي: شنيدم ديروز با همسايتون دعوات شده، هرچي به دهنت اومده بهش گفتي؟
    دوّمي: استغفر الله! من و فحش دادن؟ تا حالا از من حرف بد شنيدي؟
    --------------------------------------------------
    اوّلي: هميشه توي نوشته‌هات چيز با ارزشي براي ياد گرفتن هست
    دوّمي: اسغفر الله! من اصلا كي چيزي نوشتم كه بخواد توش چيز با ارزشي هم پيدا بشه؟
    --------------------------------------------------
    زن: خدا كنه بابات بميره، پولش برسه بهمون از اين فلاكت در بيايم
    شوهر: استغفر الله! زبونتو گاز بگير زن، اين چرت و پرتا چيه مي‌گي. خدا كنه من بميرم تو بري يه شوهر پولدار بكني ديگه برا پول آرزوي مرگ كسيو نكني
    ---------------------------------------------------
    استغفرالله! خدا منو ببخشه. ديروز يه كار بدي كردم كه نگو!



    Yes there is not any kasre. I answered your question in your new topic
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  11. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Thank you so much, lovely examples.

    Re
    اوّلي: شنيدم ديروز با همسايتون دعوات شده، هرچي به دهنت اومده بهش گفتي؟
    دوّمي: استغفر الله! من و فحش دادن؟ تا حالا از من حرف بد شنيدي؟

    it's a bit like the mocking English expression, "What, me? / "Who, me?, isn't it? I.e. the second speaker has definitely quarrelled with his neighbour and his denial is only a joke... or have I got it wrong?
     
  12. aisha93

    aisha93 Senior Member

    Arabic/Persian(larestani)
    In Arabic, we usually say العفو هذا واجبنا , which is the same as the Persian phrase خواهش می کنم وظیفه ام بود , or we say العفو هذا الواجب which also equals the Persian phrase خواهش می کنم انجام وظیفه بود.

    Actually, if you look at the Utmost Eastern Colloquial Arabic (i.e. of the Gulf countries) you can find many many phrases of Persian origin or in the Persian manner (به طرز گفتن فارسی), take this expression for example: من از خدامه برم اروپا > أنا أبيها من الله أروح أوروبا , many Persian idioms are translated literally into Arabic and used in daily conversations, this is due to the coexistence or mixture of Iranians and Arabs in these regions, as there is a very large number of Iranians (mainly from south parts of Iran) who live in countries like Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE.

    How do I notice this matter? it is because I come from both races (biracial), and have been taught both Arabic and Persian since childhood, but studied in Arabic and English school, that's why I have some difficulties in understanding Modern Persian, and it is also because the Persian which we speak is a local dialect. (Here you can read about it)

    Concerning استغفرالله, in Arabic it is mainly said by a person who hears something rude or vulgar, or when he mentions something wrong and corrects it afterwards, for example:


    أحمد: السيارة واقفة عند بيت عمي > (Ahmed: my car is parked besides my uncle's house).
    علي(متسائلا): عند بيت عمك؟ > (Ali "wondering": besides your uncle's house?) > because Ahmed does not have an uncle
    أحمد: استغفرالله، أقصد بيت عمتي (Ahmed: Oh, I mean my aunt's house).

    It is also said by an angry person who tries to calm himself down by mentioning God's name (ذكر الله).

    By the way, I'm very fond of Turkish Language, I know some basics, but still have to practice. Since you know it well, can you please tell me what is the percentage (roughly) of the Turkish words from Arabic and Persian origin? because I've seen a lot, and that is what encourages me more about it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  13. aisha93

    aisha93 Senior Member

    Arabic/Persian(larestani)
    As another example, take this clause (thanks to searcher123):

    ديروز يه كار بدي كردم كه نگو!
    In Colloquial Arabic we say it in the same manner (أمس سويت شغلة...اوه لا تقول), what proves its Persian origin is that in Western Arabic Dialects, they don't use this type of language at all.

    This is an example of what I wanted to say about the Persian manner of speech which has highly influenced Eastern Arabic.
     
  14. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Thank you so much, truly most edifying.

    As for the percentage of Arabic and Persian words in Turkish, well, roughly I'd say that 25% of the total number of words are Arabic and another 25% are Persian. This was much higher before Atatürk, who reformed the language and brought in a lot of pure Turkish words.
     
  15. searcher123

    searcher123 Senior Member

    My home ;-) /The Persian Gulf
    Farsi/Persian/فارسي
    Well, your answer is both yes and no! The main meaning is "I'm not so at all". I.e the second speaker has definitely quarrelled with insulting and this rumor is only a joke. But if the second speaker is really a foul mouthed person and the first person is awared about it completely, then the meaning is exactly as you said.
     
  16. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Thank you so much for the excellent clarification.
     
  17. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Just a thought - how can we rephrase the above in the following way in Persian, please?

    "No matter how many sins a person has committed (if he truly repents he can always be forgiven)."

    Is it possible to express this using the word مرتکب?
     
  18. searcher123

    searcher123 Senior Member

    My home ;-) /The Persian Gulf
    Farsi/Persian/فارسي


    اين كه بار گناهان كسي چقدر باشد مهم نيست ﴿اگر واقعا توبه كند هميشه بخشيده خواهد شد﴾
    هر كس هرچقدر هم كه گناه كرده باشد مهم نيست ﴿با توبه‌ي واقعي، قطعا بخشيده خواهد شد﴾
    ميزان ارتكاب گناهان يك فرد مهم نيست ﴿با توبه‌ي واقعي هميشه بخشيده خواهد شد﴾
    ميزان گناهاني كه يك فرد مرتكب شده است مهم نيست ﴿در صورت توبه واقعي هميشه بخشيده خواهد شد﴾
    هرچقدر هم كه كسي مرتكب گناه شده باشد مهم نيست ﴿هميشه با توبه‌ي واقعي بخشيده خواهد شد﴾


    and so on
     
  19. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Many thanks for the excellent examples.

    I think what I had at the back of my mind was this: can we ever use 'چند' in such structures?
    E.g. هر چند گناه را هم کرده باشه
     
  20. searcher123

    searcher123 Senior Member

    My home ;-) /The Persian Gulf
    Farsi/Persian/فارسي
    No! هرچند normally mean اگرچه or ولو (= albeit, although, though), except in هرچند نفر that mean "how many people", هرچند تا that mean "how many thing" and هرچند بار that mean "how many time"

    هرچقدر هم كه گناه كرده باشه
     
  21. seitt Senior Member

    Turkey
    English/Welsh
    Thank you so much, all is clear now.
     

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