Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Qcumber, May 25, 2006.
How do you say: The King / Emperor is dead." in Persian / Iranian?
i am not even a bit sure about it but if you mean the phrase "check mate" then it should be something like;
shah k mate
Yes, Turk, I wanted to find the origin of the term "checkmate", but what I need is the real Farsi sentence. Thanks a lot anyway.
what does the word "farsi" means?
is it possible you wanted tou say:
Farsi = Persian = Iranian
This is not completely correct. Farsi is the name in the Persian language for the language itself (as espanol is the name for Spanish in Spanish). Persian is not only spoken in Iran, it's also spoken in Afghanistan. My dialect is Afghan Farsi, so the phrase may differ from what it would be in Iran, but here it is:
(The king is dead/has died)
Keep in mind that the phrase that you're translating (origin of checkmate) most likely dates back to Middle and Old Persian, meaning that most of its usage has died out in the present day dialects.
1) Shah moorde(h)=(The) king has died/is dead as Bien said.
BUT (in the context of "The king is dead, long live the king"="Shah mord, zendeh bad Shah.") Shah moord would be proper to say though Shah moord is a past tense and it means "The king died".
2) check mat "king is ambushed" is used in chess and comes from old Persian. So is the word shish in dicing which means six.
3) Farsi and Persian are the same since Fars=Pars and because in Arabic there isn't the letter P so they have replaced P with F. Persian (Farsi) is spoken in Iran, Tajikistan and Afghanistan.
Thanks a lot Bienvenidos and Tisia.
I think the Farsi sentence was not directly transmitted to the West, but through an Arabic calque that must have been: _ash shaikh maat(a)_ "the master has died". It's a calque that follows the Farsi structure whereas a translation would have been: _maata l malik_ "the king has died".
It became _échec et mat_ in French, and the French phrase became _checkmate_ in English.
Tisia's examples are 100% correct, and extremely informative (as always). However, in the Afghan dialect, they are written as Tisia has written, but when speaking, shah moord, zendeh bad Shah becomes shah moord, zinduh basha Shah. As you can see, there is quite a difference when it is spoken in the Afghan dialect.
As for calling it Farsi or Persian, I personally prefer to call the language Farsi because 1) I'm used to calling it that and 2) it sounds better than "Persian". However, saying Persian gives the language the prestige it already has (one of the oldest languages still spoken today) and it's also the most common name. Many scholars believe it should be called Persian because when you meet a Spanish person who speaks English, they don't say "I speak espanol," they say, "speak Spanish". However, key universities and language programs (such as Rosetta Stone) call it Farsi. It's your choice, but I usually say Farsi/Persian (using both).
Yes, Bienvenidos, the difference is important as regards the second sentence.
Fortunately for me, _shah moord_ doesn't change. This is important for me because it is this short sentence that became _échec et mat > checkmate_.
By the way, what does the digraph _oo_ stand for in _moord_? Does it represent a long o [o:], two o's [oo], a long oo [u:]? How is this word written in Arabic letters: mim waw ra del ?
I'm not entirely great at Romanizing Farsi, but I would say its a long oo as in the second u in "solitude". I usually use accents to represent the words(so I would have written it as murd with an accent over the u), but the computer I'm on write now isn't capable of writing accents.
Thanks a lot Bienvenidos. So _moord_ is pronounced [mu:rd].
I can type accent, but this forum kicks me out automatically when I introduce an accented letter.
You would write moord in Persian or Arabic alphabet as this: مرد with a small و (waw) calledzama on top of the letter م (m) to convey the oo. Unfortunately I can't write it here. Usually during writing we ignore the zama. Shah moord would be شاه مرد . By the way, moord is pronounced as the English word board.
This is interesting, but what is 'abushed'? Do you mean 'ambushed'?
take a look at this ==>
It gives all possible explanations. Kinda astonishing for me, i never thought the king doesn't die. I'm also curious if chess is still popular in middle east and if it follows the same rules as elsewhere.
Yes I mean ambushed. Sorry about that. I fixed it.
At least I play it and love it, actually I got the impression of playing ches from people coming from Iran to visit Europe. I don't know about the middle east. I hate it when I am check mated
Interesting, but the etymological thread is:
Sanskrit _rajam ... _ (I don't know how it is said in Sans.) > Persian _shah mord_ > Arabic _ash shaikh maat_ > French _échec et mat_ > English _checkmate_.
You have to take the Arabic and French stages into account to explain the English form (it was not directly borrowed from Persian).
I read all the answers but nobody got it exactly right.
The king is dead: Shah morde(ast) = شاه مرده-است [using "ast" is not necessary]
The king died: Shah mord = شاه مرد
And checkmate (Shah mat) is used only in chess.
Precisely so in colloquial Persian! I think this is what Bienvenidos meant though he seems to have elongated the <o> sound! Again, I can only assume that this is Dari or Afghan Persian way of saying it!
... and as for this:
I agree! This is striclty a chess term!
"Farsi" does not mean "Iranian", unless we believe that all Iranians have Farsi as their mother language, which is false. This confusion is unfortunately very common. Actually, Farsi is only one of the languages of Iran. Turkish is another Iranian language, which encompasses a big part of the population.
As to "checkmate", the common Farsi expression is "kish ve mat" (کیش و مات).
شاه / امپراطور مرد
شاه / امپراطور دار فانی را وداع گفت
شاه / امپراطور از بین رفت
شاه / امپراطور به دیار باقی شتافت
but for شاه and امپراطور we say مرد
Separate names with a comma.