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Persian: The Spirit of the law

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Sheikh_14, Dec 7, 2013.

  1. Sheikh_14 Senior Member

    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    How would we translate the "letter" and "spirit" of the law in Urdu and Farsi?
     
  2. sapnachaandni Senior Member

    Iran, Tehran
    Persian (فارسی)
    in Farsi:
    "letter" [> law] = "دادخواست" [daadkhaast], "عریضه" [arize]
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
  3. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ I don't believe here "letter and spirit of the law" implies a letter as such. The implication of "letter of the law" is that the law is being applied/obeyed through its literal interpretation without going into the "spirit of the law"...the real intent behind it.

    This topic has come up in the past.

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2457398

    qaanuun ko sirf lafzii-ma3nii tak maHduud nahiiN samajhnaa chaahiye balkih hameN us kii ruuH ko malHuuz-i-xaatir rakhnaa chaahiye.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
  4. Jervoltage Senior Member

    Persian
    Hi,

    the letter of the law = نصّ قانون
    the spirit of the law = منظور قانون
     
  5. sapnachaandni Senior Member

    Iran, Tehran
    Persian (فارسی)
    :thumbsup:
     
  6. Sheikh_14 Senior Member

    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    From the incisive thread link I was provided the following would stand:
    Letter of the laq= Lafzi ma3ini as you have already indicated and for the latter = ruuh or manshaa e qanuun.

    Does Manzur or منظور here derive from its Arabic homophone. For I have always taken it to mean something accepted. Could either of you gentlemen/ladies care to expand on the usage of the primary parts of the two words. Leaving out Qanuun for the literal translation of that is identical in Arabic, Farsi and Urdu that being law.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
  7. Jervoltage Senior Member

    Persian
    منظور is Arabic.

    منظور = intent, منظور قانون = the intent of the law, what it is supposed to require = the spirit of the law
    نصّ = exact words
     
  8. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    I have also heard of روح قانون instead of منظور قانون.
     
  9. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Interesting. This is the term used in Arabic, I mean روح القانون , because منظور in Arabic is mostly used to mean "perspective".
     
  10. Jervoltage Senior Member

    Persian
    روح قانون also occurred to me, but I find it ambiguous in this context. I think it doesn't convey the meaning as plainly as the spirit of the law puts it, so I opted for منظور قانون which is quite straightforward.

    I don't think it means the same in Persian.
     
  11. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Yes, I see that.

    By the way, روح القوانين is the Arabic translation of the "l'esprit des lois" of Montesquieu.
     
  12. Jervoltage Senior Member

    Persian
    It is referred to as روح القوانين in Persian as well, but I don't see how it can be directly related to the topic in hand.
     
  13. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Isn't "the spirit of the law" the English version of "l'esprit de la loi"? :confused:
     
  14. Jervoltage Senior Member

    Persian
    Does Montesquieu's De l'esprit des lois contrast la lettre de la loi and l'esprit de la loi, so we can use it in the way we translate the spirit of the law (as opposed to the letter of the law) in Persian?
     
  15. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Frankly, I didn't read the book, so I can't tell.
    I don't know much about Persian, I was simply interested in the "possibility" of using روح قانون in Persian like it's used in Arabic. If it doesn't work in Persian, then be it.

    By the way, Arabic does oppose or contrast نص القانون and روح القانون .
     
  16. Jervoltage Senior Member

    Persian
    Nor have I. That is why I asked.

    It surely can be, as Treaty suggested, an option, but I think it wouldn't be as accessible as منظور قانون.
     
  17. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    I'm pretty sure that روح is a better option in Persian. I don't know why Jervoltage considers it ambiguous. روح قانون is a well-established expression used commonly in Iran. Just google "نص و روح قانون". On the other hand منظور قانون is not as common.
     
  18. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Maybe something can help here: could one of the Persian speakers check what is the Persian translation of Montesquieu's book? I'm pretty sure the title is the origin of this expression. Even if it isn't, it won't hurt to know how the title was translated into Persian. :)
     
  19. Jervoltage Senior Member

    Persian
    I just did, and the majority of results are in Arabic.

    As I said, it is the same روح القوانين.

    EDIT: By the way, I found this in the Aryanpur Dictionary under 'spirit':
    ۷- منظور واقعی، جان کلام، معنی اصلی


    the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law

    منظور واقعی قانون در مقابل متن قانون

     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
  20. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    :eek:. There are about 100 unique results for "نص و روح قانون" and "روح و نص قانون" together, all of which are Persian (except one). Also many of them are in official quotations, news or articles. There are also about 130 results for "متن و روح قانون" and "روح و متن قانون" together, again all Persian. In contrast there is only one "نص و منظور قانون" and no "منظور و نص قانون", "متن و منظور قانون" or "منظور و متن قانون". You should search all in quotation mark. So what we have is the روح قانون is used more than 200 times as منظور قانون in the spirit/letter couple.

    Bottom line, you can find the "متن و روح" in Clause 138 of Iran's Constitution and "نص و روح" in Clause 76 of Afghanistan's Constitution. منظور is not used in this sense in either texts at all.
     
  21. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    If they're the terms used in the constitution, then they're the terms that should be used everywhere. Thanks for the find, Treaty! :thumbsup:

    P.S. Just for the record, it would be hard to find روح قانون in an Arabic text, because Arabic uses the definite القانون .
     
  22. Jervoltage Senior Member

    Persian
    I have already expressed my opinion. I prefer منظور قانون, and wouldn't go for the literal روح قانون. However, I did not rule it out.

    I did not put نص و روح قانون in quotation marks.

    How would you translate the spirit of the law in the following?

    "The spirit of the law is that there should be one set of rules governing access to a multistate placement of a surplus lines product."
    "The spirit of the law is that warranty coverage cannot be denied simply because such [aftermarket] parts are present on the vehicle."
    "The spirit of the law is that if the campus houses those documents in any form, they need to produce those documents."
    ...

    I, for one, would definitely opt for منظور قانون اینست که....

    Constitutions are there to govern countries, not languages, right? :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
  23. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    It's not about governing the language, but with technical terms (and this is a legal term, I suppose) I always prefer using the versions agreed upon and used by official entities and a good number of the language users, rather than put one of my own, even when I don't like the official translation very much.

    But this is just me, you are of course entitled to use the term you prefer. :)
     
  24. Jervoltage Senior Member

    Persian
    I see, but I wouldn't call this a technical term.
     

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