Persian-Urdu: chand with an izaafat

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Qureshpor, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Can "chand" be the last component of an izaafat construction in Persian or Urdu?

    e.g x-e-chand..

    If it can, what does this "chand" mean?
     
  2. eskandar

    eskandar Moderator

    English (US)
    In Persian, I have seen چند at the end of a phrase to mean "a few", "several", or "some". For example:

    هان ای پسر عزیز دلبند
    بشنو ز پدر نصیحتی چند

    O dear darling son, listen to some advice from your father
    (Iraj Mirza)

    However, if I am not mistaken, there is no ezaafe in this construction. (In other words, it is nasihati chand and not nasihati-e chand). I can't recall ever hearing it specifically as part of an ezaafe (ie. nasihati-e chand or nasihat-e chand or whatever else), but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Let's see what those more knowledgeable than I have to say.
     
  3. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    eskandar SaaHib, thank you. I was aware of this construction where the noun (usually singular) has a majhuul ye attached to it and it is followed by chand..

    e.g. payaame chand, gaame chand, jaame chand etc, and plural ayyaame chand.
    What I am asking about is a noun followed by an izaafat and then "chand".
     
  4. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    In daily speech we always say these as chand ayyaam, chand jaam, chand gaam, chand din, chand saal etc. Always without the ezaafat even for Persian / Arabic word combinations, i.e. never ayyaam-e-chand, gaam-e-chand. Trying to recollect if ever I heard these in poetry. I can't seem to at the moment.
     
  5. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I am grateful for your response. The poet Khvaajah Miir Dard (1748-1810) has a famous Ghazal with the matla3..

    tuhmat-i-chand apne zimme dhar chale
    kis liye aa'e the ham, kyaa kar chale?

    The general considered view is that the construction in the first line is indeed "tuhmat-i-chand" although one does also find "tumateN chand" . The question is this. Does one find this kind of construction in Persian? I can't seem to recall anything? Neither do I remember coming across anything like this in Urdu. The second question is, "What does tuhmat-i-chand mean"? One explanation is "tuhmat-i-chand (ashxaas) but I am not convinced with this theory. I am of the view that here "chand", if the construction actually is "tuhmat-i-chand" does not mean "a few/some" but "How much/many". But not in the interrogative sense, rather with an exclamatory meaning.

    kitnoN kii tuhmat apne zimme dhar chale!
    kis liye aa'e the ham, kyaa kar chale?

    The second line is more often than not..

    jis liye aa'e the ham, so kar chale
     
  6. UrduMedium Senior Member

    United States
    Urdu (Karachi)
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
  7. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
  8. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    A couple of examples from Classical Persian. I would like to ask Persian knowing friends if they are reading an izaafat in these couplets before "chand".

    بتیر و کمان و بگرز و کمند
    بیفکند بردشت نخجیر چند
    Firdausi

    بزد خیمه گرد لب هیرمند
    برآسود باخرمی روز چند
    Asadi
     
  9. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    dam-e-chand is attested in my nasiim-ul-luGhaat! So we can say it is safe to use it although in everyday speech I must say I haven't heard it. Ideal for Urdu poetry!
     
  10. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Let us wait for our Persophone colleagues but I would read these with the izaafat before chand.
     
  11. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you Faylasoof SaaHib. I am wondering if there is a "mix-up" between "dame chand" (a few breaths-- with yaa-i-majhuul) and "dam-i-chand" (with izaafat). If it is indeed the construction with the izaafat, then in Urdu at least this would be my second instance of seeing an izaafat before chand, the first one being Dard's "tuhmat-i-chand".
     
  12. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    QP SaaHib, nasiim-ul-lughaat gives the definition of dam-e-chand as: چند لمحے chand lamHe - same as that UM SaaHib found in the online dictionary(above), although I do understand that this one, like other online lexicons, sometimes gets things wrong! It is therefore best to confirm what one finds in online ones by looking up well-known printed ones.
     
  13. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you, UM and Faylasoof SaaHibaan. I was a little weary of the dictionary UM SaaHib had quoted from but it, Nasiim-ul-Lughaat and Ghalib have proved me wrong!! I shall just use three couplets. It is quite clear from these examples that the meaning of "chand" after an izaafat is "kuchh", although I am still of the opinion that in the right context, it can mean "kitnaa/kitne". And, perhaps, in the "tuhmat-i-chand" shi3r, it does mean this.

    dil-i-betaab kih siine meN dam-i-chand rahaa
    bah-dam-i-chand giriftaar-i-Gham-i-chand rahaa

    zindagii ke hu'e naagah nafas chand tamaam
    kuuchah-i-yaar jo mujh se qadam-i-chand rahaa

    3umr-bhar hosh nah yak jaa hu'e mere kih, Asad
    maiN parastandah-i-ruu-i-sanam-i-chand rahaa
     
  14. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Another example with a clear-cut izaafat can be found in the expression باستثنائےچند.
     
  15. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Is the ئے an izaafat or yaa-i-vaHdat?
     
  16. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    In the post above I called this example a written ''clear-cut izaafat'' being quite sure of it, but since you are asking I suspect there may be a trick in here, but as per my perception it is izaafat, not yaa-e-waHdat.
     
  17. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    No, there is no "trick", marrish SaaHib. We in the Subcontinent do not distinguish the izaafat after a long vowel from a yaa-i-majhuul after a long vowel. In your example, the pattern could be exactly the same as in the Hafiz Ghazal beginning..

    حسب حالے ننوشتیم و شد ایامے چند
    قاصدےکو که فرستم به تو پیغا مے چند

    In order for your example to be an izaafat, it should be written as با ستسناے چند. Are you sure your construction is n't with yaa-i-vahdat as in the Hafiz shi3r above?
     
  18. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    It is true what you say about the pronunciation/depiction of izaafat after a long vowel being equal to yaa-e-majhuul as depicted in the Subcontinent. However, the sense of the expression leaves no room for ambiguity. Moreover, it should be written as با ستثنا . I must admit that the spelling of the izaafat that you propose (without hamzah ء) is something new for me, and I'm not only referring to this very example. If I find more examples like this (hamzah+ye) I'll get back and post them here.
     
  19. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I am not a 100% certain that I have been able to convey what I have in mind.

    This is not my "proposal". Although "kitaabe chand" and "kitaab-i-chand" seem to mean the same thing (as per Mirza Ghalib's Ghazal)..

    marde nek = a pious man (with yaa-i-vahdat)

    mard-i-nek = The pious man (with izaafat)

    So ba_istisnaae chand = with a few exceptions

    ba_istisnaa-i-chand = with the few exceptions (that have been mentioned already..)
     
  20. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Please excuse me for the unfortunate expression (propose). It should have been 'postulate' instead.

    QP SaaHib, I have to confess that I don't consider myself competent to argue with you on this point, but I acknowledge that I have understood the points you have made above. I had merely the Urdu way of writing in mind (hamzah or no hamzah).

    As I have made my point above about this expression being an example of izaafat, let me reiterate that I find the expression is ba_istisnaa-e-chand, meaning 'with the exception of some (cases)'. If I have erred on this point, I'd love to be corrected!
     

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