Persian: What is rose in Persian?

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Daffodil100, Jun 21, 2013.

  1. Daffodil100

    Daffodil100 Senior Member

    Chinese
    Hi,

    I found some online sources suggest rose is roz or gholsorkh.

    Google translates it as gholosorkh, but online Hayyim doesn't adopt it. Is the word newly coined too?

    http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/hayyim/

    Some source mentions:

    ghol= flower
    sorkh= rosy, sanguine

    But I want to refer to a rose whatever its color is, instead of of red. Is it still okay?


    And some said it is roz. Below URL is a thread about the discussion.

    http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070930161807AAJhbem

    I wonder what the most Iranians would say for rose in Persian.

    Thank you!
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2013
  2. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    Perhaps native Persian speakers can confirm, but I believe it's (more commonly) گل سرخ or sometimes simply گل. But it's not ghol.
     
  3. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Hi,

    We did this here!
     
  4. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    The Persian word for rose is رز [roz] or گل رز [gol e roz]. Certain types of red rose are called گل سرخ or گل محمدی (which is very aromatic). For other colours we attach the colour after rose: رز سیاه, رز سفید, ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2013
  5. Daffodil100

    Daffodil100 Senior Member

    Chinese
    Thank you very much for your reply, everyone. I see.
     
  6. mannoushka Senior Member

    Iran/Persian
    This thread serves to remind us that 'a rose by any other name would smell as sweet'; I've also heard of Nastaran in reference to briar rose.
     
  7. darush Senior Member

    Someone told me in Old Persian the word گل stands for Rose once, and every flower has its specific name(without adding a گل at the first).
    Fore example, نرگس (Iris) زنبق (Narcissus)...Today گلِ نرگس، گلِ زنبق are more common.

    Probably گلِ محمدی is the oldest variety of Rose in Iran. Its pinkish color is known as Persian Pink.

    Nastaran is a wild type Rose variety.
     
  8. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    Although not commonly used in the sense of rose in Modern Persian, that is indeed the original meaning of گل, which is from Old Iranian *wṛda-.
     
  9. darush Senior Member

    Thanks for info. So, وردة (Arabic Rose) should be a Persian word.
     
  10. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Is ورد (roses in general) or وردة (a rose) found in Classical Persian literature? If not, it would seem rather odd!
     
  11. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    That is unlikely, though the origin of the term is uncertain. وردة has cognates in Akkadian, Aramaic, and Hebrew and since the rose is native to the Mediterranean region, the word may originate in Semitic or perhaps an unknown language that once existed in the region. At first glance, the Latin rosa and Greek rhodon "rose" appear quite different from گل and وردة, but they too may be connected to the Iranian and Semitic forms.
     
  12. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I've checked this and it vard does occur often enough, for example

    har sharii3at raa kih Haqq mansuux kard
    uu giyaah burd-o-3ivaz aavurd vard

    Maulavii

    bulbul-at raa nest isti3daad-i-nutq
    varnah daayam baashade dar vird vard

    Anvarii
     
  13. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Just to add to the discussion, many Semitic words ended up in Pahlavi (or Middle) Persian since Aramaic was one of the official languages used and the influence of Aramaic is quite apparent. I guess Ancient Persian also borrowed word from other languages just as it and Pahlavi also lent words to other languages. In Pahlavi Persian:
    rose = gul
    flower = gul, sprahm (but also shkuufag).
     
  14. Daffodil100

    Daffodil100 Senior Member

    Chinese
    Hi,

    Do you have any idea why rose is translated as گل سرخ in my Farsi-English Dictionary ? The author only gives this word.

    And could you confirm گل سرخ doesn't mean red rose but a type of rose?

    گل: Flower
    سرخ: Sanguine | Rosy

    Thank you!
     
  15. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Because that is what a rose is: گل سرخ ! You can see that it was used in Middle Persian or Pahlavi as well:

    رز [roz] is a French borrowing!
     
  16. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    "rose" as a colour is somehow pinkish red. That's why rose is connected to گل سرخ
    گل سرخ is always reddish. It means "red rose". You cannot have a yellow گل سرخ.
     
  17. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    I suppose this would be true for all colors, but in the case of yellow rose for instance, would roz-e zard be more common than gol-e zard? Do you know if roz is also used for rose in Dari or only gul?
     
  18. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    In modern Persian, Gol-e zard means "yellow flower". Among colours, it is only gol-e sorx that has two distinct and widespread meanings (red flower / red rose). For other colours, the construction gol-e X may refer to some certain types of flower or rose or just a so-coloured generic flower.
    For example, based on Dehkhoda, gol-e zard can refer to yellow matthiola, yellow rosa cannina, yellow rose and among them. However, if you ask an ordinary Persian, you're told it just means "yellow flower".

    Personally, I don't think the Dari usage much differs from Persian though we should wait for a Dari speaker to clarify it.
     
  19. Daffodil100

    Daffodil100 Senior Member

    Chinese
    Thank you very much
     
  20. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Persian yellow rose (Rosa foetida) = نسترن زرد / گل زرد / رز زرد ایرانی

    Although quite understandably Persian and Dari have a huge overlap but they don’t always use the same names for the same things!


    In Dari, a rose = gulaab – same as in Urdu!


     
  21. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    It is interesting. In Persian, gol-e golaab is seldom used for red rose. Golaab is used for rosewater. I'm curious to know what rosewater is in Dari?
     
  22. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    The Dari cookbook I have uses the term 3araq-e-gulaab عرق گلاب for rose water throughout. This is also one of the terms we use in Urdu.
     
  23. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    This is the example I quoted in another thread.
    زنی بود گریه منظر و بینهایت زشت روی- اورا برای کوری عقد بستند و بمناکحش در آوردند-روزی زن بشوهرش گفت -افسوس که این صورت من چون آفتاب و رخسارۂ من چون گل گلاب از چشم تو پوشیده است

     
  24. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    It seems Platts, Shakespear, and Steingass all overlooked Dari when defining gulaab. Unless Dari has been influenced by Urdu in recent times to use gulaab for rose.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2013
  25. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    A couple of examples of usage of "gulaab" for "rose", by Hafiz and Maulavi, the latter from Balkh (in Afghanistan)

    شکستہ کسمہ و بربرگ گل گلاب زدہ
    ز جرعہ بر رخ حور و پری گلاب زدہ
    حافظ

    ہمہ چون دانۂ انگور و دلم چون چرش است
    ہمہ چون برگِ گلاب و دلِِ من چون دکان
    مولوی
     
  26. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I don't know how recent you are supposing it to be but in a small dictionary here: http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED192577.pdf you will find gulaab/golaab on p. 164. It was compiled in 1979.
     
  27. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    Gol-e golaab does not literally mean "rose flower" but "rosewater flower" or "the flower which produces rosewater". It is like to say "apple tree" درخت سیب to indicate "the tree which produces apple". Araq-e golaab can be compared to araq-e sekangabin while sekangabin is not a plant but mixture of vinegar and sugar.

    In Maulavii's poem, it doesn't refer to "rose". Golaab (Gol-e aab) also means water lily (lotus). Considering that couplet, lotus leaf is open and clear (contrasting to enclosed dark shop دکان).

    Anyway, the entry in that dictionary was interesting. It is likely that in Dari, gol-e golaab is shortened to golaab as the name of the flower.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2013
  28. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    barg-i-gulaab, to my mind, means "rose-petal/s" and not petal/s of rose-water!

    As an aside, I spoke with an Afghani friend of mine yeasterday and he told me that rose in his language (Dari) was gul-i-gulaab.
     
  29. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    Yes, برگ گلاب also means petals of rose but I still don't get a contrast between it and دکان. That's why I found the "lotus" meaning more relevant.
     
  30. Daffodil100

    Daffodil100 Senior Member

    Chinese
    I happened to read an article in Chinese about the etymology of rose yesterday.

    The author mentioned linguists believe rose in Indo-European languages is derived from vardha, which is found in Avestan. The variations were vard or vart in Pahlavi. The word can still be found in some modern Persian words. For examples, in Iran there’s a place named suhrvard, which means red rose or red flower. The surname of Mr Verdinejad, former Iranian Ambassador to China, is relevant to rose. Nejad means family, clan; and vardi or Verdi means rose planter.

    Here is the sum-up:

    In Persian: vardha—〉vard—〉val—〉gol
      
    In English: vardha—〉wrodhon—〉rodhon—〉rodh—〉rose


    I didn't translate it verbatim.


    Reference: Etymology of Rose from MOTS Sohu Blog (in Chinese)
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2013
  31. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    The article you read in the blog is not entirely accurate. Read the first paragraph of the Iranica article on gol here.
     
  32. Daffodil100

    Daffodil100 Senior Member

    Chinese
    I don't understand why it is not accurate. It seems to me it vindicates the article. Rose is from rodhon, and rodhon for wrodhon, if we track it back?


     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2013
  33. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    Maybe I misunderstood you, but it seems the author you mentioned stated that the Indo-European (i.e. Greek and Latin) words are derived from the Avestan vardha. As Iranica shows, the Greek and Latin words are related to the Iranian ones, though not necessarily derived from the Avestan varəδa- (of uncertain meaning). They could be independent borrowings from the same (probably Semitic) source.
     
  34. Daffodil100

    Daffodil100 Senior Member

    Chinese

    Yes, I mean that. Is rose in Semitic older than Avestan?
     
  35. Daffodil100

    Daffodil100 Senior Member

    Chinese
    I have more to translate about the word for you and other folks. I will have to do it later. Got to go.
     
  36. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    Most likely, yes. Rose is attested in Akkadian.
     
  37. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    Please consider that ورد or وردی has three other meanings, at least:
    - vard = a place making suffix (~ gard). I suspect Suhravard is of this type.
    - verd = magical/religious spell
    - verdi or berdi = a Turkish suffix meaning "given" or "gift", found in some names (though, it may have an ultimate Perso-Soghdian root).

    Actually, vard with the meaning of rose is not usually used in Persian except in literary texts. In addition, that vard is Arabic.
     
  38. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    From Wikipedia article..

    .نام نوعی گل رز است که از آن گلابمی‌گیرند: (Rosa damascena) گل محمدی یا گل گلاب (نام علمی


     

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