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Personal + possessive pronoun

Discussion in 'Magyar (Hungarian)' started by tarinoidenkertoja, Dec 9, 2012.

  1. tarinoidenkertoja Senior Member

    bologna,italy
    Italian
    Hello,
    I wrote a simple sentence like: "A olaszod jobb, mint az magyarom", this time , a native speaker corrected it as in: "A te olaszod jobb, mint az én magyarom". I can't understand why "te" and "én" are required in this case, is there any other case where the possessive pronoun must be preceded by the personal pronoun?
     
  2. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Hello tarino,

    Your sentence was OK, don't worry:), the corrected version just sounds more explicit, the opposition is more obvious like this.

    I suppose it is a little bit like in Italian, that the personal pronouns (io, tu, ecc.) are usually not used except when there is a special accent on them. Here, it seems a little bit like that.
    The possessive endings express whose knowledge of language you mean but if you put the personal pronouns before the nouns, the opposition between the two persons involved is underlined more clearly.

    P.S. The personal pronoun can be put even if it is unstressed e.g. in special expressions (e.g. az én házam -- az én váram) but that complicates life a bit, you can leave it for later.:)
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  3. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    A little correction: "Az olaszod jobb, mint a magyarom"
    (The original or "full" form of the article is "az", but before a consonant this "az" becomes "a" for euphonic reasons. In the past it used to be written with apostophe: a')

    I'd like to add to Zsanna's explanation that in your example, without giving more context, the contrast is emphasised (i.e. Your Italian versus My Hungarian), that's why "A te olaszod jobb, mint az én magyarom" sounds better.

    In Italian, in this case we cannot express the difference, but in some other cases yes (as Zsanna has already mentioned). For example, instead of "Sono italiano, ma tu sei ungherese" it's better to say "Io sono italiano, ma tu sei ungherese".
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  4. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    Hmm...strange sentence...but I understand it's the literal translation...I think the Hungarian sentence means "your Italian girlfriend is better than my Hungarian girlfriend".
    I'd say: Jobban beszélsz olaszul, mint én magyarul.
     
  5. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    It is true that it could be interpreted like that, too. In fact any noun (e.g. book, letter, etc.) could come after Italian and Hungarian but this is why context helps!:)
    Otherwise your suggestion is the most explicit version.:thumbsup:
     
  6. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    My "two cents"...

    "Jobban beszélsz olaszul, mint én magyarul" is, of course, a much more natural way for expressing the idea we are talking about. The interpretation of "Az olaszod jobb, minta magyarom" depends only on the context, as Zsanna has already said. I don't think at all, that this sentence/phrase, without any context, should "automatically" mean "your Italian girlfriend is better than my Hungarian girlfriend".

    (there are also boyfriends ... csak viccelek :))
     
  7. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    Unfortunately we must face the sad fact :( now that Hungarian in this case is rather defective. Francisgranad and maybe Zsanna from Russian as well would know that in Hungarian words like that can mean at least four things, unlike Slavic languages, Slavic languages in that cas are the best! and use in all 4 cases a completely different word. in Czech e.g.
    1. olasz = italský = Italian (adjective)
    2. olasz = Ital = an Italian
    3. olasz = Italka = an Italian (woman)
    4. olasz = italština = Italian language
     
  8. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    I agree, but there's no contradiction. In all your examples, in the English equivalents you use only the word Italian, so it's not so bad (sad) with the Hungarian ...

    In Italian (Spanish, Portuguese ...), comparing with the English, the grammatical gender can be distinguished, but nothing more:

    1. olasz = italský = italiano (adjective)
    2. olasz = Ital = italiano
    3. olasz = Italka = italiana
    4. olasz = Italština = italiano
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  9. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    Sorry, in Russian there are three variations, Czech and Slovak is the best. :thumbsup: I'll ask the All Slavic forum right away... :D
     
  10. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    As far as I remember, you are right (there's no special equivalent for words like Italština).
     
  11. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Let us not forget that we are discussing a Hungarian sentence and therefore after adjectives any noun can come that fits, and even if the adjective is used without (like in our example), it can replace any of those that could follow it in a full form.
     
  12. Akitlosz Senior Member

    Hungary
    Hungarian
    Both versions are correct.
    "Te" and "én" are not required, but stronger, as always in the Hungarian language.
     

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