PIE *bhel, PS *bal

Discussion in 'Etymology, History of languages and Linguistics (EHL)' started by john welch, May 27, 2013.

  1. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    Could there have been influence/ borrowing of these roots in northern Middle East?
    Semitic *Ba.-Ayn.-Lam. Baal means"owner. chief ruler. elevated land" > Greek Belos, a deity.
    PIE *bel2 Sanskrit balin "strong. warrior".
    (Baal, a god of thunder and a bull-horned god, mated with a cow and produced a heifer. English bull < *bhel2 (Pokorny *bhel3) "blow. inflate " but E bellow < *bhel4 (Pok *bhel6) "roar, sound ". These seem similar and perhaps the Baal of Carthage, known in Greece and probably in early Italy, merged all these sentiments for Celtic observers.)
    So Gaelic beal / bheal "strong", as in "strong rain of Beltane", may have had Semitic input.?
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2013
  2. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Most words starting with Bal in Baltic languages, including Lithuanian mean white, or something to do with white. Baltas -- white, baltijos jura (it used to be balta jura historically) -- the Baltic Sea, balandis -- a white bird (dove or a white pigeon) Or, would the cognates you had in mind have to start with *Bhel only in IE languages?
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2013
  3. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    Belenos as "shining. bright" is assumed to be *bha or *bheu, perhaps also "white"? However he is apparently at Beltane as
    B(h)eal. tuinn/tein where tuinn means "fixed.possesing" ("Baal"?) and tein is "fire" . This may indicate a double tradition, the Semitic and Gaelic. Phoenicians in Spain may be involved.
     
  4. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Yes, I just realized that the Baltic baltas comes from the PIE *bhel anyhow (white). So do you think these might be somehow related? Fire has a different root in Baltic and Slavic languages. Ugnis -- in Lithuanian, ogień in Polish. Wetland (swamp) has a similar root in Baltic languages. Baltan in Old Prussian or bala in Lithuanian (pelke, also).
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2013
  5. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    Belenos as sun-god caused hot water-springs, like Baal of Spring and rain (and Indra of sun and rain, the "balin" father of Balin).
    Roman deities were easily syncretised with Gaelic traditions. "Baal" had various local aspects extending down to an animal or group of men. Possibly there was a geographic continuum of B-l "strong rain god" across the IE and Semitic territory.
     
  6. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    I do not think any of your (mutually exclusive) comparisons is the least bit plausible from a semantic point of view.
     
  7. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Please note that there is no Semitic deity B-L. The Semitic word for owner, lord, husband, ... and the Canaanite Deity is B-`-L and not B-L.
    Baal is a wrong transcription of the name of the Canaanite god, it should be Ba`al.
     
  8. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    Does "baal" in Lebanon have no connection with water flows, semantically?
    Is /bel/ a wrong expression for /ba'al/?
    [Bel (pron.: /ˈbl/; from Akkadian bēlu), signifying "lord" or "master", is a title rather than a genuine name, applied to various gods in Babylonian religion. The feminine form is Belit 'Lady, Mistress'. Bel is represented in Greek as Belos and in Latin as Belus. Linguistically Bel is an East Semitic form cognate with Northwest Semitic Ba‘al with the same meaning.]
     
  9. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    My bad. In Akkadian, the consonant ` is of course lost and only the long e instead of two short as indicates its former presence. Totally forgot about that, sorry.
     
  10. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    His Akkadian name is Bel. Yet this is a regular shift.
     
  11. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    See my post above (#9).:)
     
  12. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Of course, Semitic baʻl becomes Akkadian bēlu. So are you (J.W.) claiming that PIE borrowed this word from Akkadian?
     
  13. john welch Senior Member

    English-Australian creole
    <...>
    fdb,
    "No".
    I have stated my theory . Probably no answer is available.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2013

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