plough you for the Little-go

Discussion in 'English Only' started by gvergara, Jan 19, 2008.

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  1. gvergara

    gvergara Senior Member

    Santiago, Chile
    Español
    Hi

    I really don't understand the sentence in bold, who can help me?

    (If one could travel into the past) "One might get one's Greek from the vey lips of Homer and Plato", the Very Young Man thought.

    "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.
    From "The Time Machine" by "George Wells

    Gonzalo
     
  2. suzi br

    suzi br Senior Member

    Stoke on Trent
    England and English
    Well it doesn't mean anything that I know. Perhaps that is the point, in view of the next bit, perhaps meaning the language has been mangled?
     
  3. GreenWhiteBlue

    GreenWhiteBlue Senior Member

    New York
    USA - English
    A "little-go" is a type of examination in Cambridge University (at Oxford the same examination is called "the smalls".) It is taken the second year in residence, and it precedes by one year the examination taken for the degree itself, which is called the "great go".
     
  4. GamblingCamel

    GamblingCamel Senior Member

    USA English CULTA + RUA
    from infoplease.com
    Little-Go: The examination held in the Cambridge University in the second year of residence. Called also “the previous examination,” because it precedes by a year the examination for a degree. In Oxford the corresponding examination is called The Smalls.

    They would certainly plough you for is BE to describe how the examiners will be asking questions that you will be unable to answer. In AE we might say They will bury you.

    GWB: We are definitely traveling the same paths.
     
  5. Bella1 Senior Member

    London
    UK Bilingual French/English
    I think it is many many years since Cambridge University used the term 'Little-Go'. In the 1950s I'm sure the second year exam was called 'Preliminary Examination'.
     
  6. ewie

    ewie Senior Member

    This septic isle!
    NW Englandish English
    I'd never heard of or come across this before. Perhaps the term was widely known of in Wells' day.
     
  7. GreenWhiteBlue

    GreenWhiteBlue Senior Member

    New York
    USA - English
    The Time Machine was published in 1895.
     
  8. Bella1 Senior Member

    London
    UK Bilingual French/English
    Ewie - Google ''little-go' +Cambridge - page 1 or 2 - Queens College - 'A Freshman in 1911' - tells you all about it in detail.
     
  9. Loob

    Loob Senior Member

    English UK
    It's also a long time since Oxford undergraduates sat Smalls...
     
  10. suzi br

    suzi br Senior Member

    Stoke on Trent
    England and English
    or wore them?
     
  11. suzi br

    suzi br Senior Member

    Stoke on Trent
    England and English
    I still don't know what the quotation "means" even if we establish that part of the ref is to an old exam system...
     
  12. GreenWhiteBlue

    GreenWhiteBlue Senior Member

    New York
    USA - English
    It means that if one travelled back in time and learned Greek from Homer himself, one would not do well on a university examination in 1895, because the 19th Century scholars had "improved Greek so much" with their modern studies of the language.

    The statement is intended to be humorous.
     
  13. Beninjam Senior Member

    Belgium
    British English
    The term little-go indeed refers to an examination. It is supposed to derive from the words "You know too little. Go!" I always understood it as referring to the matriculation examinations but I bow to superior knowledge.
     
  14. panjandrum

    panjandrum PongoMod

    Belfast, Ireland
    English-Ireland (top end)
    Hello Beninjam - welcome to WordReference :)

    Your suggested etymology is entertaining, but doesn't agree with others.

    From the OED:
    2. Univ. colloq. The popular name (later superseded at Oxford by ‘smalls’) for the first examination for the degree of B.A., officially called ‘Responsions’ at Oxford and ‘The Previous Examination’ at Cambridge (discontinued in the 20th c.).

    1820 Gentl. Mag. XC. I. 32 At present the Examination [at Oxford] is divided into a Little-go and a Great-go; colloquial appellations of the facetious great children sucking at the bosom of Alma Mater.
     
  15. Hermione Golightly

    Hermione Golightly Senior Member

    SW London
    British English
    To plough somebody in an exam is or was slang for to fail them.

    OED

    I have never heard of an exam called 'Smalls' at Oxford.

    Hermione
     
  16. Beninjam Senior Member

    Belgium
    British English
    I had the little-go etymology from my father who was up at Cambridge just after the war. Come to think of it, it does sound a bit like undergrad humour.

    Regards
     
  17. grubble

    grubble Senior Member

    South of England, UK
    British English
    It simply means they would show you up or beat you hollow. Clearly if you could travel back to ancient Greece you would expect them to be better at (ancient) Greek than scholars nowadays. He is complaining that modern German scholars have "improved" ancient Greek.
     
  18. Loob

    Loob Senior Member

    English UK
    Yes...
    "Plough you" means "fail you".
     
  19. grubble

    grubble Senior Member

    South of England, UK
    British English
    Yes, that is a better way of putting it.

    My suggestion
    they would certainly plough you for the Little-go

    means

    If the ancient Greeks made you sit an exam in classical Greek they would certainly give you a fail.
     
  20. Loob

    Loob Senior Member

    English UK
    No, sorry - "they" is a reference is to today's examiners - or, rather, the examiners at the time of writing,
     
  21. grubble

    grubble Senior Member

    South of England, UK
    British English
    No, no, no: Look again -

    One might get one's Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato, in which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go.
     
  22. Loob

    Loob Senior Member

    English UK
    You are - arguably - right, grubble.

    But I still disagree with you:D.
     
  23. grubble

    grubble Senior Member

    South of England, UK
    British English
    Let's face it. Syntactically you could be right (barely) but semantically my interpretation is the only one that holds water.

    EDIT in subsequent discussion, this statement of mine is shown to be wrong.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2010
  24. Loob

    Loob Senior Member

    English UK
    Let's face it: we need to agree to disagree:).
     
  25. grubble

    grubble Senior Member

    South of England, UK
    British English
    Well we could but we are trying to help gvergara, at least I am.

    "One might get one's Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato, in which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much"

    My interpretation:

    "(If you travelled back in time) you could learn Greek from the ancient Greeks in which case they would definitely show up your lack of knowledge because our modern-day knowledge of ancient Greek has been so messed up by the Germans."

    Now please can we hear your different interpretation - not just a blanket denial.

    I would genuinely be interested and I am willing to be persuaded if you can convince me.
     
  26. Cagey post mod

    California
    English - US
    Note: This was written before the above was posted.

    I agree that the antecedent of "they" is debatable.

    However, "improved Greek" suggests to me that the "improved Greek" is the higher standard, and the one that should be aspired to, according to the writer's ironic assumption. Thus I read "they" as the examiners who administer the "Little-gos" and the Greek you learned from the benighted ancients as the Greek that would be judged inadequate.

    This seems to me wittier.

    Thus, this time I will agree to agree with Loob and to disagree with grubble. ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2010
  27. grubble

    grubble Senior Member

    South of England, UK
    British English
    Okay. Thanks for your reasoned argument. I agree that it has its own logic. Mine is as follows: H.G. Wells is in fact being sarcastic when he says that the Germans know more about Greek than the Greeks themselves. That is where the humour lies.

    Cagey, Are you really saying that Greek tidied up by a load of clever modern people is more authentic than the actual language of the people that spoke it? Surely not! And neither is Wells.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2010
  28. Cagey post mod

    California
    English - US
    Nor was I claiming Wells did. I take this for an example of what one might call irony. ;)

    It seems wittier to me that way.
     
  29. panjandrum

    panjandrum PongoMod

    Belfast, Ireland
    English-Ireland (top end)
    One might get one's Greek from the vey lips of Homer and Plato", the Very Young Man thought.

    "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.

    Reading carefully and slowly.
    "One might get one's Greek from the vey lips of Homer and Plato"
    As a result, one might become thoroughly proficient in the Greek of Homer and Plato.
    "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go."
    Now we have the sentence with the apparent ambiguity.

    Could "they" be "Homer and Plato"?
    I suggest not, for two reasons.
    1. That Homer and Plato are not responsible for the Little-go;
    2. Even if they were, that having learnt Greek from their very lips it is highly unlikely that they would fail him.

    Could "they" be the modern-day university examiners?
    I suggest yes, on similar reasoning.
    1. That is who is responsible for the Little-go;
    2. They would be assessing an student taught by the ancient Greeks against standards appropriate for the improved-by-the-Germans version - and so would be highly likely to fail him.
     
  30. grubble

    grubble Senior Member

    South of England, UK
    British English
    That is certainly a cogent analysis. It makes me reconsider.

    The main strength of my argument came from here:
    One might get one's Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato.In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go.
    This is a single continuous utterance by the Very Young Man. We would expect from the structure of the sentence that "they" would refer to Homer and Plato.

    Against Cagey's and Loob's argument was that they were plucking "examiners" from mid-air.

    On reflection I must admit that (1) this could be the non-specific "they" as in "They say that it is going to rain tomorrow." which requires no antecedent or (2) it is likely that something in the prior text contains a disambiguating clue. Maybe the examiners were mentioned immediately before the passage we were given.

    In sum I believe that you have a very strong case, stronger than mine in fact.

    It just goes to show how important context is!
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2010
  31. Anchises New Member

    English - US
    When The Time Machine was being written, there was a revolution going on in classics departments in British and American universities. Up till then, academics all over Europe generally pronounced Latin according to the relation between spelling and pronunciation in their own respective languages. It was a little more complicated in English because of the Norman French influence. We still hear the "traditional" pronunciation of Latin in legal terms: when a meeting is terminated without setting a date for reconvening, that is called sine die (without a day/date), and it is pronounced "sigh knee dye", whereas classical Romans would have said something more like "see nay D.A." Ever since the 1500s, scholars knew that they weren't using the authentic ancient sounds of the languages, but universities strenuously resisted change until the early 20th century. Even now, most professors of Greek ignore three important factors in classical pronunciation: 1) the marked accents are pitch rather than stress accents. 2) Long vowels and syllables are long by duration, not just vowel quality. 3) The letters theta, phi and chi and hard consonants like tau, pi and kappa, but "aspirated" - with an extra puff of air at the end. None of these distinctions come naturally for speakers of English, and it takes some time and practice to get them right. It's hard enough already to get students to sign up for courses in Ancient Greek ... why make it harder? The result is embarrassing, however, because different rules for stress have to be used in reading poetry vs. prose; otherwise the meter is garbled.

    Because all this was a big issue at the time in universities, I think the deflating of the Very Young Man’s enthusiasm by a more cynical friend meant that the Greek he learned in 4th century Athens would be incomprehensible, or at least frowned upon, at Cambridge, because of the difference in pronunciation. There is another factor. In Plato’s time, there was still no systematizing of Greek grammar. In one of his dialogues, Socrates has to go to some trouble to explain the difference between an active and a passive verb. There was still no formal grammatical terminology for this difference, but everyone could intuitively use the right forms in speaking. The German classical scholars of the 19th century were fanatical systematizers, and regarded as the most authoritative classicists. So it’s possible that the German “improvement” of Greek has to do with formal grammar, or with pronunciation (I think the new system was adopted in German universities before British ones). It could mean that the Greek the VYM had learned so far would get him kicked out of Plato’s Academy, or that Plato’s Greek would not get him a pass at Cambridge. I think more likely the latter. Homer is also mentioned, and Homer wouldn’t have cared how the VYM spoke. The language of the Homeric epics is a mixture of early dialects, all different from Plato’s over 300 years later. Sometimes Homer seems to throw in an extra vowel or two just to get the rhythm to come out right. Another possibility is that the older friend is skeptical that the German innovations in pronunciation are valid, and that he thinks Plato did really speak like an OxBridge don, or that we have no idea how he would really have sounded.
     
  32. Anchises New Member

    English - US
    A footnote to my comment above: In order to get into a university [The Royal College of Science in South Kensington, London] H G Wells studied with the help of a tutor, including a correspondence course in Latin in which he did very well. However, he never studied Greek. As he became an ever-more-radical enthusiast for technocratic socialism, Wells came to despise especially Professors of Greek and Anglican Bishops as symbols of the old useless boring unscientific establishment. So, even at this early date in his career, I expect the VYM's enthusiasm for Greek is supposed to make the character pretentious and tedious; and the comeback about flunking exams is a slap-down.
     
  33. wandle

    wandle Senior Member

    London
    English - British
    The sentence in question, it is worth noting, is not a reply made by another character to the Very Young Man. It is simply the Very Young Man's own reflection following his first thought. The subsequent context makes this clear, since the next sentence tells us what he said, as distinct from what he thought.

    The Time Machine
    As the conversation in this passage occurs at the start of the book, there has been no characterisation of the speakers. We know nothing of the Very Young Man, not even his age, except (from this very extract) that he is presumably a Cambridge classics man, in his second or third year.

    Even if Wells knew little or no Greek, it does not follow that the observation about improved Greek is pointless or misconceived. On the contrary, I would assume that it reflects observations which Wells had himself heard from Oxbridge graduates or read in literary magazines.

    If so, what could it mean? It is at first sight nonsensical. If any undergraduate could present at his preliminary exam a knowledge of Greek such as Plato might have taught, far from being failed, he would be hailed as a scholarly phenomenon. No scholars, German or other, could improve upon Plato's Greek.

    The sentence can hardly refer either to pronunciation or grammar. Pronunciation would not be an issue at Little-go, which would, I believe, consist entirely of written papers. Improvement in knowedge of Greek grammar is a process which can only bring the scholar closer to the ancient authors: it does not and cannot invalidate their use of language.

    Wells is referring here, I feel sure, to the practice of textual criticism, in which Germans led the field and forced British and other scholars to follow in their path, some eagerly, some reluctantly.

    Brief History of Textual Criticism
    This improvement of the text is the process of correcting passages in which corruption, that is, copying errors, had arisen over the centuries. It is about restoring the text as nearly as possible to the state in which the author had left it. The result of this process - for which the highest levels of scholarship and experience are required - might well prove uncomfortable to other scholars, now obliged to accept a reading different from that which they had been taught, and which they may not have been equipped to challenge.

    What Wells' sentence reflects is I believe the humorous or reactionary sentiment of British classicists who would talk as if the ancient texts had been 'improved' a step too far by earnest continental scholars.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  34. Anchises New Member

    English - US
    Of the four paragraphs you quote, #s 1 and 3 are attributed to the VYM, #4 is spoken by "I" (the narrator), and the speaker in paragraph #2 is not identified. A new paragraph indicates a new speaker, unless the previous paragraph does not end with quotation mark(s), as would be the case in a very long speech quoted. The latter is never the case here, and it seems extremely improbable that three successive short paragraphs represent speech by the same speaker. If they did, why name him again in #3? Furthermore, the 'you' in 'they would certainly plough you' indicates a direct response, rather than a generalized or impersonal 'you'. If VYM was continuing his own thought upon further reflection, I expect he would have said something like, ‘But then they might plow me for the Little-go….’

    The VYM is first described speaking about the clarity of his own understanding of the time-traveler’s exposition while awkwardly trying to light a cigar, an image which, combined with the youth emphasized by his moniker, indicates over-earnestness, a desire to be taken more seriously by his elders. He utters one not-very-well-thought-through speculation about time travel, is humorously told of one of many impracticalities of the idea, so he immediately changes the subject to another banal speculation, which is also shot down. The effect is to put the reader on his toes, having been warned that this story will require some serious thought. Perhaps the reader is also encouraged by being allowed to imagine that he/she is not so naïve as VYM.

    I never thought that VYM’s remark about learning Greek indicated that he was reading classics specifically, any more than his next comment about accumulation of interest would mean he was contemplating a career as a banker. If ‘Little-go’ is strictly a Cambridge expression, then I could be wrong. But these are subjects which any middle-class Late Victorian might have thought about. A good knowledge of Latin would have been required to enter university no matter what the eventual ‘major’, and probably also some knowledge of Greek. It is true that times were changing rapidly. But even in 1917, Allen in his “First Year of Greek” begins the preface, “However regrettable it may seem, during the past decade or so Greek has come to be in this country largely a college subject. Already approximately four thousand students each year begin the study of Greek after entering college, and this number is certain to increase.” (He taught at the U. of California. He seems to be saying that all or most college students apart from those tardy 4000 already had some competence in Greek before arriving. Otherwise a decline in the study of Greek at the secondary level would not be leading to an increase of enrollments in any college Greek course.) I had an uncle who got his Ph.D. in philosophy and theology in the 1920s at the Sorbonne, and he told me that all the lectures in those subjects were still given in Latin.

    This same uncle had previously earned his undergraduate degree at Magdalene College, Oxford. He said that the final exam for graduation was strictly an oral one, before a committee of the faculty. I’m pretty confident he said the same of the preliminary exam, though I’m less certain. There were no other exams of any kind, nor was attendance at lectures required. The only criterion for graduation was mastery of the reading list, which the lectures were intended to assist, however indirectly. For what they’re worth, these are my recollections of what I was told half a century ago by someone recalling his experience several decades before that.

    I submit for consideration the possibility that Plato could not have prepared anyone for a modern university exam in Greek. Plato, however great a prose stylist he might have been, was not an expert in Greek in the academic sense. Those didn’t exist until the grammarians of Alexandria. Modern faculty would be looking for an ability to understand and compare texts and inscriptions in the light of modern analytical methods and the whole history of scholarship over the 2400 or so years since Plato lived, as well as the cultural and historical context. Not native fluency in the language. From the point of view of a linguist, Plato would be called a ‘naïve informant’. He would be of more help with the history and culture, at least of his own generation. Of course, modern classicists would love to get their hands on some naïve informants from the ancient world, but not to hire them to teach linguistics or philology. This is not at all to disparage Plato. He would make a far more interesting acquaintance than a typical modern academic.

    I agree with your last statement about Wells reflecting the “humorous or reactionary sentiment of British classicists”, but I’m less certain he means textual criticism, which might have been a little too arcane. I still think the issue of pronunciation is more likely. It was noted in the popular culture. Winston Churchill, in his early semi-autobiography, expressed disgust that a favorite line from Caesar was now to be pronounced “waney, weedy, weaky”.
     
  35. wandle

    wandle Senior Member

    London
    English - British
    A new speaker, in a many-sided conversation, would need to be named.
    In any case, how could the second two sentences here be a reply by someone else? The first remark is what the Very Young Man thought: he did not speak it; no one heard it.

    It is true of course that the second two sentences make a counter-argument against the first remark. The author is showing us that the Very Young Man countered his own thought before he opened his mouth. That is why, when he spoke, it was to express a different idea.

    When I was at Oxford in the sixties, 'Little-go' was, as far as I knew, a Cambridge term only. It was not current then in reference to any Oxford exam. However, this paper by Octavius Ogle shows that it had been an Oxford exam a century earlier. It also shows that it was then a new system at Oxford to have such an exam early in the first year. Ogle argues for abolishing Little-go, and returning to the old system of a first exam held only after one or two years. In fact, a hundred years later, the standard Classics course was providing just that: Mods after five terms, Greats after another seven, and no Smalls at all (on the other hand, regular Collections, testing vacation work - effectively revising the previous term).

    Perhaps therefore Little-go at Oxford was an experiment copied from Cambridge and subsequently abandoned. It is clear from Ogle's interesting account (including several classical howlers) that Oxford's Little-go, apart from four or more papers, included about twenty minutes' examination viva voce ('by live speech'). This would not have been a test of pronunciation, though, but question and answer in English, testing weak points in the papers already written. The other name for the exam, Responsions, also indicates its medieval origin in oral question and answer (which would have been in Latin). All this then creates an expectation that Little-go at Cambridge in the mid-nineteenth century would have been partly viva voce in English. That however does not prove that an oral element existed fifty years later.

    In any case, it seems to me that pronunciation does not fit the bill for Wells' comment here. The movement towards reforming pronunciation to match that of the ancients did come from the continent, but it had started much earlier, with the Dutch scholar Erasmus in the fifteenth century. The emergence to prominence of textual criticism, on the other hand, was distinctly associated with its nineteenth-century German exponents. I remember comments being made about textual criticism by teachers and tutors in my student days which, though more qualified and reasonable, bore a distinct family resemblance to that of the Very Young Man.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  36. wandle

    wandle Senior Member

    London
    English - British
    He was a supreme prose stylist, as well as a profound thinker, and personally I feel sure that if he had taught the language any reasonable student could only have been brought to a good level, certainly well above that of a first-year undergraduate. The newly-arrived undergraduate at Oxford or Cambridge would never have been required to demonstrate an advanced level of philological scholarship: many would not have achieved this by the end of their time, let alone the beginning.

    If we ask whether Plato could have been a professor of Classics in Wells' day or in ours, the answer can only be 'Of course he could'.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  37. Anchises New Member

    English - US
    One last (hopefully brief) argument for my interpretation of the dialog under consideration: The Time Machine has a narrator who is unnamed but who is the point-of-view character. His narration is not omniscient. We know only what he sees and hears and perhaps what he thinks about it all (though Wells keeps the latter to a minimum, except at the very end). Most of the novel is an extended quotation of the time traveller's account of his journey into the future, as heard and reported by the narrator. [Readers today would become impatient with a quoted narration extending more than 50 pages, but it was commonly done back then. Conrad’s “Heart of Darkness” uses the same technique.] Therefore, when Wells wrote "'... from the very lips of Homer and Plato,' the Very Young Man thought." he must have meant "thought aloud", perhaps musing to himself, but audibly. Otherwise the narrator would be unable to report it.

    It is true that the first chapter is a chaotic group conversation. But there appears to be a pattern: unattributed paragraphs of dialog are mostly spoken by the Time Traveller, except when he is momentarily in a one-on-one exchange with a particular character. There is an example of this a page or two (depending on your edition) before the dialog we have been focused on. The T-T and the Medical Man are discussing the limitations of travel in the vertical dimension. There are three consecutive paragraphs in which the speaker is not named:

    “Easier, far easier down than up.”
    “And you cannot move at all in Time, you cannot get away from the present moment.”
    “My dear sir, that is just where you are wrong….”

    Here it is easy to tell that the 1st and 3rd speeches are by the T-T, and the 2nd by the Medical Man. When a third character rejoins the discussion, the identifying tag is ‘interrupted the Psychologist.’

    The line about being ploughed for the Little-go could have been spoken by the T-T, but in the context of my argument below I am now leaning toward the Medical Man. Just previously, there had been an extended exchange between T-T and Filby. After that, the order of speakers goes as follows:

    1) T-T [mostly still addressed to Filby]
    2) VYM [interrupting]
    3) T-T [not named but continuing his previous sentence]
    4) Filby laughs but doesn’t speak
    5) T-T
    6) the Psychologist [on observing Hastings, 1066]
    7) the Medical Man [objecting]
    8) VYM [mentioning Homer and Plato]
    9) unattributed [if not T-T then the Medical Man, mentioning the Little-go (it could have been he who went to Cambridge). The Medical Man was the last speaker other than VYM, and that speech was also a skeptical jibe about the dangers of anachronisms.]
    10) VYM
    11) narrator
    12) the Psychologist
    13) T-T
    etc.

    In paragraph 2 in this list, the VYM is shown to be not only open to the idea of a Time Machine, but anticipating that T-T is about to reveal it. So whatever VYM’s strengths or weaknesses, he is shown to be less hampered by the fixed ideas of his elders.

    On other matters: The Erasmian pronunciation was fairly close to what is used today, but it was not adopted as regular practice in schools even by Erasmus himself. Repeated attempts in England by “reformers” to adopt it were quashed, or else did not last for various reasons. The most common practice seems to be to imagine a transliteration into Latin, using Roman conventions, and then pronouncing it according to the then-standard rules of Latin pronunciation. The most famous names from antiquity as well as many Greek words taken over into English are still pronounced this way. It was only in the mid-to-late 19th century that the new system began to take hold. Academics were even more conservative about Latin, since it was spoken more commonly in university settings. I vaguely remember reading someone’s memoir a few years ago about being a student in the 1920s, I think, and being stunned whenever he heard an aged don at the head of the table in the college dining hall say grace in Latin using the old traditional British-academic pronunciation.

    I never meant to imply that students would be examined on pronunciation, specifically; only that use of a pronunciation not favored by the examiners would raise eyebrows and would adversely affect the outcome. [I have downloaded the Ogle paper you cite and will definitely read it.]

    I would, of course, love to hear lectures by Plato, or (even better) informal discussions in a small group setting. Sadly, the best are not always rewarded. University departments, at least in the US, notoriously hire others who think as they do, leading to a kind of intellectual inbreeding, and are jealous of anyone famous or successful in the popular culture, who has succeeded for reasons outside the routines of peer-reviewed publication.
     
  38. Cagey post mod

    California
    English - US
    As interesting as I find this discussion personally, it is drifting into issues beyond the scope of this forum. I realize that by closing the thread now, I have put anyone who would respond to the most recent posts at a disadvantage.

    I apologize for that, but it seems to me that the only available alternative would be to remove all the more detailed posts, and that doesn't appeal to me either. Remember that further discussion can be carried on by private message, where there are no restrictions as long as both parties are interested in corresponding.

    If anyone has a a different question about a particular sentence in this passage, they are welcome to start a new thread.

    This thread is now closed.

    Cagey, moderator.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
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