Pronouncing the surname Czibor

Discussion in 'Magyar (Hungarian)' started by cisarro, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. cisarro Senior Member

    Chilean spanish
    Hello:

    How can I pronounce the Cz in the surname Czibor? (Czibor Zoltán is a former Hungarian football player).
     
  2. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    I haven't heard the name yet but if it goes according to the rules (99,5% sure), the "Cz" is pronunced exactly as if there were only a "c" at the beginning.
    It is just an old way of spelling that is kept up in family names.

    So a /ts/ like in tsar.
     
  3. cisarro Senior Member

    Chilean spanish
    I think so. I was watching some old matches of Zoltán Czibor related in Hungarian in Youtube, and it sounds closer to /ts/ but I wasn't sure.

    Thank you Zsanna :D
     
  4. franknagy

    franknagy Senior Member

    The sound /ts/ like in tsar was denoted by "cz" in general until 1922. The "z" is unnecessary in the digraph, so since that time only the family names retained the "cz". E.g. my grandson's family name is Macz but mackó means teddybear.
     
  5. cisarro Senior Member

    Chilean spanish
    Thank you Frank :D
     
  6. franknagy

    franknagy Senior Member

    260px-Hydrophilus.piceus.-.calwer.08.30.jpg Hydrophilus.piceus
    This water insect is named csíbor in Hungarian, pronounced with Spanish ch-.
    :warning: Take care with Hungarian and Polish cz and cz. Hungarian is ts, Polish is ch.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2012
  7. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    What Frank left out of the previous was that it is possbile that the name Czibor comes from the name of the above mentioned insect as this old "cz" was pronounced as our present day "cs" (like ch in such) at a certain time (and by a certain group of people).
    I don't know whether it is really the case (it is difficult to look it up) but it is likely.
    Thanks, frank, for the idea.:)
     
  8. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    The name Czibor may also come from the Slavic given name Ctibor (eliminating the "t" as consonant clusters like "ct" at the beginning of the word did not exist in Hungarian).
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  9. franknagy

    franknagy Senior Member

    Zsanna, you are wrong.
    The old Hungarian texts contained much more Latin words than the present ones. Therefore the sound of tzar was denoted in the 19th century and before by cz because the Latin c might be prounounced as K, and the sound of children was denoted by ts according to the old Hungarian orthography. The cz has changed to c and the ts has changed to c. The coincidence of Czibor family and csíbor insect is false because the cz did never denote the sound of children in the Hungarian spelling.
    Regards
    Frank
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  10. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Frank, I only tried to decipher the reason for your comment (no.6) and I said I couldn't be sure whether it was right. (If the name originates before the 18th C, it is highly unlikely to be able to be sure.)

    However, it is sure that the cz could be pronounced several ways, namely three, according to this from the Czuczor-Fogarasi Dictionary of Hungarian Language, including the one I mentioned above. (There are examples for it in the link like: czibe -> csibe, czihol -> csihol, etc.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  11. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    This may be true in general, but not generally. E.g. the famous "Pallas nagy lexikona" from 1893 uses simply "c" as we write it today.
     

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