Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ChocolateLover Senior Member

    English
    Hola a todos:

    ¿Me podrían decir si en toda España se pronuncia la "z" como la "th" inglesa de "this"?

    ¿En partes de Latinoamérica se pronuncia igual?

    Muchas gracias
     
  2. Tiger's Eye

    Tiger's Eye Senior Member

    Georgia, USA
    English - US
    En España sí--se pronuncia con un sonido muy parecido al "th" de inglés. En Latinoamérica se pronuncia igual que la "s". O sea, que sepa yo, España es el único lugar donde hablan con el ceceo.
     
  3. YaniraTfe Senior Member

    Canary Islands, Spain
    español (España)
    No, en las Islas Canarias pronunciamos tanto la "z" y la c+e y la c+i como si fuera una "s"

    (gracias = "grásias")

    Un saludo!
     
  4. PABLO DE SOTO Senior Member

    Spain Spanish

    No sería la th de this, sino la th de thanks.
     
  5. sabretoof

    sabretoof Senior Member

    English - Australia
    It's my understanding that the th in this is pretty close to the pronunciation of the Spanish D in the middle or end of a word. I'm not entirely sure if there's any dialectical variation there.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2010
  6. spodulike

    spodulike Senior Member

    Brighton, England
    English - England
    Ejemplo

    "without" ... se dice <UIDÁUT>
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2010
  7. Istriano

    Istriano Senior Member

    -
    Sevilla and Córdoba are seseantes just like Canaries and Latin America. Try finding a video with LAS KETCHUP or D'NASH: korasson and not korathon.
     
  8. sabretoof

    sabretoof Senior Member

    English - Australia
    I have no idea what you're saying.
     
  9. esance

    esance Senior Member

    Yes Pablo I agree,

    "th" when you say Thanks is the Z sonido!
     
  10. Masood Senior Member

    Leicester, England
    British English
    As I understand it (and pronounce it), it's more like the Th in Thursday.
     
  11. esance

    esance Senior Member

    Yes Masood you are right, also like mathematics

    Hope this helps!
     
  12. spodulike

    spodulike Senior Member

    Brighton, England
    English - England
    I am indicating how "without" is pronounced using Spanish phonetics.
     
  13. Masood Senior Member

    Leicester, England
    British English
    Yes, I think you're right.

    As far as I'm aware, there is no true pronunciation in the English language equivalent to the Spanish D.
     
  14. sabretoof

    sabretoof Senior Member

    English - Australia
    Ahh, I see. I'm so used to IPA now I wouldn't recognise anything else :), Spanish letters aren't the best option given the dialectical variation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2010
  15. ricebowl Junior Member

    US - Florida
    English (US)
    Spanish phonetics don't really work for the word "without". The transformation of Spanish D into ð (English TH as in "this" or "they") follows a rule. I think the transformation may depend on stress; I don't think a D in a stressed syllable gets reduced to ð. The -ado and -ido suffixes are always rendered /aðo/ and /iðo/, because the final syllable is never stressed. Sometimes the word "día" is /dia/, and other times it is definitely /ðia/. I would pronounce your example as /widaut/ and not /wiðaut/ as you intended.

    As for the topic at hand, I can say that excluding regional variation, in Mexico, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Panama, Colombia, Venezuela, and Peru, Spanish C in CE/CI and Z are pronounced as S. I have only heard them pronounced as θ in Argentina and Spain. However, I don't think that even all Spaniards and Argentines pronounce CE/CI and Z as θ. I also seem to recall reading that S before a consonant is also changed into θ.

    This is a good starting point for more information:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_phonology
     
  16. spodulike

    spodulike Senior Member

    Brighton, England
    English - England
    Would you say that "th" (voiced) is like the final D in "ciudad" or is that regional as well?
     
  17. ricebowl Junior Member

    US - Florida
    English (US)
    I pronounce ciudad as /siuðá/ or /siuðád/ depending on what follows, so I suppose that it's not stress-related after all. It is not simply a matter of falling between two vowels, though. I pronounce identificar as /identificar/ not /iðentificar/.
     
  18. Istriano

    Istriano Senior Member

    -
    My Gran diccionario español-portugués gives /θju'ðað/ as the pronunciation of CIUDAD, and it's a Castillian Spanish - Brazilian Portuguese dictionary (the same book is available here on wordreference.com but with no Spanish pronunciation shown).
     
  19. Södertjej

    Södertjej Senior Member

    Junto al Mediterráneo
    Spanish ES/Swedish (utlandssvensk)
    This has been previously discussed many times. Here you are just a few threads:

    1.
    2.
    3.
    4.
    5.

    Istriano: what your dictionary describes is not the Spanish pronunciation for ciudad. C pronounced as s is used just in some areas, like Andalusia or the Canary Islands, but that's not the most common way to pronounce it at all.
     
  20. Ynez Senior Member

    Spain
    Spanish
    θ es el símbolo fonético de la z y ce/ci, que se corresponde en inglés (chocolate) con:

    thanks
    thursday
    thing thin
    thought
    through


    Verlos en español es más difícil (istriano parece que tiene un buen diccionario), pero en inglés se pueden ver en este foro, en English/Spanish.
     
  21. ChocolateLover Senior Member

    English
    Muchas gracias a todos

    ¿En el sur de España se suele usar el seseo?

    Gracias
     
  22. Södertjej

    Södertjej Senior Member

    Junto al Mediterráneo
    Spanish ES/Swedish (utlandssvensk)
    Si miras esos hilos antiguos (hay más) verás que España se sesea en zonas de Andalucía y en Canarias. Esa fue la pronunciación que llegó a América, no la de Castilla.
     
  23. Ynez Senior Member

    Spain
    Spanish
    Sí, en Andalucía. Pero si ves el Canal Sur (tv de Andalucía) sesean poco, al menos los presentadores. Quiero decir que sí, que se sesea, pero que están acostumbrados a oír las z porque algunos piensan que es más correcto y todas esas cosas.

    Mi opinión es que es mejor que te acostumbres a pronunciar la z/ce/ci (creo que hasta los de América te dirían esto), porque te ayudará con la ortografía. Luego siempre sería más fácil decirlo todo con s si quisieras.

    Y si lo que pasa es que te vas a ir a Andalucía, una vez allí ya te adaptarás poco a poco y podrás calcular cómo te interesa hablar. :)
     
  24. ChocolateLover Senior Member

    English
    Muchas gracias

    Saludos
     
  25. Södertjej

    Södertjej Senior Member

    Junto al Mediterráneo
    Spanish ES/Swedish (utlandssvensk)
    No toda Andalucía es seseante, como demuestra tu ejemplo de Canal Sur. Muchos andaluces aspiran las s finales, o junto a consonantes, pronuncian una s más similar a la americana que a la castellana, pero además diferencian entre z y s. Y también hay en Andalucía una minoría ceceante.
     
  26. Ushuaia

    Ushuaia Senior Member

    Buenos Aires
    castellano rioplatense
    Ricebowl, that's incorrect. S, ce/ci and z all sound alike in Argentina: /s/. There are regional differences within the country concerning other sounds, but /θ/ just doesn't exist here. You may have heard it, though... from Spanish immigrants!
     
  27. ChocolateLover Senior Member

    English
    Muchas gracias a todos

    Saludos
     
  28. whitejonatan New Member

    English - Appalachian
    I definitely have heard Paulina Rubio speaking with a ceceo, and she's Mexican, isn't she?
     
  29. ricebowl Junior Member

    US - Florida
    English (US)
    That makes sense. The Argentine that I heard who wasn't ceceando had a German last name, and I haven't had much contact with Argentines to know that it wasn't a regional thing.

    Thanks :)
     
  30. Södertjej

    Södertjej Senior Member

    Junto al Mediterráneo
    Spanish ES/Swedish (utlandssvensk)
    No she doesn't, she has some kind of posh s which she uses for both z and s. But since she's married to a Spaniard it could be she was imitating the Spanish way of speaking. Not the way she normally speaks, anyway.

    And remember, ceceo is pronouncing both s and z as English th in think /θ/, and that is done only by very few people in Spain in very specific areas. Pronouncing s as s and z as /θ/ is not ceceo.
     
  31. Twenty-Seventh Letter Junior Member

    United States (English)
    Andalucía is all over the place; in Seville and other parts they use seseo, but in some places (Cádiz, Málaga) they cecear, and still other areas of Andalucía they use distinción. I think a more regular feature found in the speech of most Andaluces is the "swallowing" of syllable-final S (similar to Caribbean accents.) I'm not a Spaniard so I could be wrong about that, but that's how it seemed on my brief visit there.

    On a somewhat related topic, I wonder how Latin Americans feel about Americans (Unitedstatians) speaking Spanish with a Castilian accent. It's my favorite variety of Spanish and I love Spain, but when I speak to Latin American immigrants in the US they are sometimes confused by the "lisp." I wonder if they find it weird or just pretentious for a Western Hemisphere-dweller to speak like that. In the future I would really like to travel to South America, but I have a feeling I'll get some raised eyebrows.
     
  32. ricebowl Junior Member

    US - Florida
    English (US)
    My Mexican friends say that a ceceo accent is considered somewhat posh. Apart from that, it's just another accent. I have gotten the distinct impression that there is some prejudice against ceceo accents.
     
  33. Twenty-Seventh Letter Junior Member

    United States (English)
    Thanks ricebowl. I have heard something similar from a Mexican friend, but I wanted a wider sample. I am confused by your last sentence though, as it seems to negate the previous one. Did you mean to say "I haven't gotten the distinct impression..."? If you meant what you wrote, would you mind elaborating a bit?
     
  34. flljob

    flljob Senior Member

    México
    México español
    Muy chistoso.

    Saludos
     
  35. Twenty-Seventh Letter Junior Member

    United States (English)
    Pues, me gusta hacer reír a la gente.
     
  36. ricebowl Junior Member

    US - Florida
    English (US)
    What my friend said was that it's just another accent, though perhaps somewhat posh.

    *My* experience in asking various Hispanics a similar question, whether or not Spain Spanish is perceived as upper class in a fashion similar to how Americans perceive certain British accents, is that there is some prejudice against ceceo accents. Certain people scoffed at the idea.
     
  37. Twenty-Seventh Letter Junior Member

    United States (English)
    Interesting. Thanks for clarifying.
     
  38. Södertjej

    Södertjej Senior Member

    Junto al Mediterráneo
    Spanish ES/Swedish (utlandssvensk)
    Please, please, please, let's use proper names. It's not "ceceo accent". Ceceo means using only the sound /θ/ for s. What you mean is distinción s/z. Because ceceo happens only in some areas in Spain, as it has been mentioned.

    If your Mexican friends find the Spanish way of speaking posh it may be like Americans finding British English posh (as it's been mentioned), this is, just not knowing if the accent is actually posh or not, just different, but assuming it's posh even if it's quite standard. I speak British English and when I go the US I do get raised eyebrows now and then (not so often anymore). I was once told "we'll have to do something with your accent".

    I mean, you just smile and say yeah, yeah, but it's obvious those who say that haven't travelled very much and are not really into languages.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2010
  39. ampurdan

    ampurdan Modstachioed modnster

    jiā tàiluó ní yà
    Català & español (Spain)
    This topic has already been dealt in the forum. Please, check the dictionary and the forum before opening a new thread.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page