Punjabi-Urdu-Hindi: Paindu/Pendu/PeNDuu

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Qureshpor, Jan 12, 2012.

  1. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Paindu/Pendu/PeNDuu has frequently been used in this forum. The latest entrant has been Alfaaz SaaHib/ah.

    I am interested in knowing what latent meanings are attached to this otherwise innocent looking word. Prior to visiting this forum, I thought this word just meant a "villager". It seems I have had a very sheltered life!

    Thank you all in advance.
     
  2. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I know its usage as an adjective, too. It is a part of the common speech in Pakistani Punjab, at least. I wouldn't employ it too much in regard to a linguistic discussion, though. It's a stigmatising word.

    There are English words we can refer to, there is no need to use it writing in English, as I'm concerned.
     
  3. Abu Talha Senior Member

    Urdu
    Unfortunately, villagers have often an ill-deserved reputation for being uncultured, even though they are often the most eloquent (and conservative) in their speech. If not already known, it unfortunately means country bumpkin.
     
  4. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I think the title of the thread should be limited to Punjabi, at the most Urdu usage, of course until an input from a Hindi expert.
     
  5. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    :) :(; As I stated in the response, I certainly didn't mean to be rude or offend anyone! Everyone might have a different definition/perception of this word, but it is generally used for anyone that speaks in the tone of a "villager." Now, this in itself might be confusing and an inadequate description because there are many differnt styles/tones in village life and depends on the location...
    The word is generally used for a person that speaks Urdu with a "Punjabi touch" (Bushra Ansari's character in a drama comes to mind) which is hard to describe in words! However, it is not necessary that it only be limited to Punjabi (one of Mahdi Hassan's filmi songs, one of Rafi's, and one picturised on Dilip Kumar come to mind) and can be the influence of other languages (Gujarati, Hyderabadi, etc.) Phrases such as "hum to yeh karigava/karat hain" have generally been portrayed as "paindu" by media. "kehta hai jamana tera piya harjaaie hai...chithi j/zara saiyaan ji ke naam likh de!" (doesn't seem like a punjabi influence, but does seem village-like)
    Also, it is generally used for anyone that speaks gualbi urdu or even gulabi panjabi (with an Urdu accent)...Media is in part responsible for portraying a certain segment of society in a stereotypical way and because of those portrayals people start associating certain words, accents, dialects with the stereotype!
    Again, didn't mean to offend anyone!
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2012
  6. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    My opinion is that this word is not used at all in Hindi, lest influenced by Punjabi.
     
  7. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    This is what I had to say about this word in another thread where it was intimated that Punjabi people mix y/j consonants.

    I have to say that I have never heard Punjabi speakers pronounce "y" as in "yahaaN" something akin to a "j" as in "jahaaN". Being a "peNDuu"* through and through [and having school teachers who were also "peNDuus"] I can reiterate that neither do I ever confuse "y" with a "j" like sound nor did my teachers or other "peNDuus" that I lived amongst. Part of my family come from a truly "peNDuu" background and even they never pronounced "y" incorrectly. I too have "an ear" for language and would have noticed this phenomenon if I had come across it. I do find it baffling though since Punjabi has hundreds of words which begin with "y" and "j" sounds and such a confusion between the two is therefore difficult to comprehend. Let me provide an example.

    mere jyuuNdiyaaN tuuN har vele kyuuN yarkadaa rahnaa veN? (Why are you scared all the time whilst I am alive?)
     
  8. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    I would agree completely with what you are saying Qureshpor, which is why other languages were included as well in the response (and in the post about le ker ke, Hindi was also mentioned). You probably have heard these, but just to illustrate that Punjabi doesn't have to be the only lanugage influence that would be considered "paindu", one can listen to the following songs on Youtube from "Aina aur Surat":

    Ahmad Rushdie sings for Mohd. Ali in "aina aur Surat"
    MEHDI HASAN - THARE NAINA BAREY BEIMAN HEIN - AAINA AUR SOORAT
    Ahmad Rushdi "Tuk dhina dhin" (Shabnaam and Mohd Ali)
     
  9. BP. Senior Member

    Karachi
    Urdu
    QP, the word villain reportedly derives from villager.
     
  10. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    In the initial position y- is pronounced often as a sound ranging between ye and ژ zhe
    Not always


    Depending of a dialect, speaker.

    In some Punjabi dialects lainoN paar, it's j


    this is maybe not a matter of confusing but of pronunciation. You can say, this phenomenon exists in Punjabi, but I think its just the peculiarity of a separate language, independent of other languages.

    Amen. In some Indian varieties of Punjabi, it is indeed pronounced as j. Punjabi is a vast language!
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  11. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    In addition to "paindu", "dihaati" is also similarly used (not necessarily by everyone) and unfortunately often with a negative connotation (equated to being illiterate/jahil/ganwaar) which is certainly not the case.
     
  12. BP. Senior Member

    Karachi
    Urdu
    Doesn't ganwaar mean exactly what peenDuu does!?
     
  13. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    BP: yes it does. thanks for pointing out the mistake:) (was replying in a hurry)
     
  14. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I have included Hindi into this thread for the simple reason that there are Punjabis who are also Hindi speakers just as there are Punjabis who are speakers of Urdu. Besides, it is good to get a wider view on the subject from people who may have come across this word.
     
  15. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    In that case our Subcontinent is mainly peopled by villains! How sad!
     
  16. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    This is how "gaNvaar" is defined in an Urdu dictionary.

    معانی 1. گاؤں کا باشندہ، دیہاتی، دہقان، قصباتی۔


    "شہری اور دیہات کے ایک گنوار کے مکالموں میں فرق ہونا چاہیے۔"، [1]


    2. جاہل، ان پڑھ، اجڈ۔


    "آپ اپنے اسی گنوار سنار بابو کو بلا کر حکم دیں سلاخیں بنا دے۔"، [2]



    3. احمق، نادان، بے وقوف، باہر بندو۔


    "قصباتی و گنوار و باہر بندو بمعنی احمق۔"، [3]



    4. { مجازا } غیر مہذب، غیر متمدن، ناشائستہ، بدسلیقہ۔

    You will agree that in 1. we have the literal meaning of the word and 2-4 are the extended meanings. But "gaNvaar" as far as Urdu-Hindi are concerned, can refer to a "gaNvaar" of any ethnicity. This is because Urdu-Hindi are spoken and understood in a much more wider geographical area than Punjabi. On the other hand "peNDuu" is derived from "pinD" (village) in Punjabi, so, peNDuu is not just any old villager but a Punjabi villager.

    In this forum we discuss language and if there are language issues linked to Punjabi language and Punjabi speaking community, then one can bring this into discussion without any fear or hesitation. But, the important thing is that one ought to include some form of evidence to illustrate one's point. It's no good just making stereotypical remarks such as "This grammatical formation is Punjabi influenced". How is it influenced? Can we provide some examples to illustrate the point?

    In another thread, marrish SaaHib has rightly said that often Punjabis are the whipping boys of society or something similar. We are not discussing politics here. We are all, hopefully, mature, open-minded people and for these reasons should keep any stereotypical, prejudicial and discriminatory remarks out of our discussions, whether about Punjabis, Marathis, Bengalis, Pakhtuns, Sindihis..anyone, even Martians!:)

    Punjabi probably has one of the oldest literatures of the Prakrit languages. It is a very old language community. The area that I come from was once inhabited by the likes of Raja Poras before the so called Alexander the Great stuck his nose in our affairs!:) Punjabi contribution to the cause of Urdu literature (both in verse and prose) has been second to none. In the words of Iqbal..

    "kuchh baat hai kih hastii miTtii nahiiN hamaarii". I know he was n't talking about Punjabis! But he might as well have been!:)
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  17. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    As stated previously, didn't mean to offend any person, language, or culture. Made a generalization mostly based on media portrayals and surroundings, which probably should have been avoided. But wouldn't it be somewhat similar to the comment made in the "mujhe/mein mere thread" about hearing the particular construction being used in Bollywood films (which by the way it is, recently in Don 2 :))? This certainly doesn't mean that all films or "hindi" speakers would use such phrases, but is just a general observation...

    I've been visiting this forum for quite a while (before actually joining) and agree that Punjabi has been often discriminated against/targeted unjustly. Didn't mean to target it again (and therefore provided other "filmi" examples of non-Punjabi accents that might be socially considered village like).

    There is no doubt that Punjabi is a very rich language with lots of great literature and figures such as Bulleh Shah in the "classics" to even "recent" people like "Baba" Nizaamdeen (Hillna halauna, hilla ke thand pauna, te akhien meri maan nu mainu hilna paunchona) (ae dharti, bewafa dharti, baRi gunRi te meeNi ae...) to "older" songs like "phagaan waleo, naam jhapo maula naam", "pyaar naal na sahi guse naal wekh laya kar", "ki dam da bharosa yaar...chhad chagre te kariye pyaar...dum ave na ave" and "newer" songs like "awein na kar maan ke ik din tur jaNa"; the list continues on and on...
    There is also no doubt that Punjabis have had a great contribution to Urdu with shuara like Iqbal, Faiz, and even Anwar Masood (banain meri wadiya, top di...).

    kise di wi dil azaari karna maqsad bilkul nahi si...ainadah koshish hoegi ke sakafat nu tehreer wich shamil na kita jaaey (siruf alfaaz, jumle, ya fiqreyan te tabsarah pesh hoe)!
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  18. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu


    I agree and support what you said to the full extent. I have always felt remorse while reading some remarks about Punjabi on this forum, which show a patronizing attitude to this beautiful and lively language. I'm sure that people who look down upon it, don't know the language, but are in turn biased against its speakers!

    Some comments accuse other languages of being under the influence of Punjabi! In my opinion they only nobilitate Punjabi this way. It gives a proof of its strength and popularity!


    It would be better to discuss the languages and to refrain from categorizing their speakers.
     
  19. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    marrish: Since I have been mentioned in the title post as "latest entrant has been Alfaaz", it might be that some comments might be directed at me...?
    Just to clarify, I can speak Punjabi fluently :) and as have said above in a post that enjoy the language very much (equally as other languages)!

    As far as "accusing" might be concerned, the intention was certainly not to be discriminatory or rude. Haven't there also been threads on this forum discussing influences of Persian on Punjabi (pusht,panj, etc.), and Bihaari, Hyderabaadi, and Gujrati dialects on Urdu and other related languages, English's influence on Urdu (spelling the word "iisteshun"), the increasing priority being given to English, Sanskritization of Hindi, and so many more such topics, all oberserving effects that neighboring languages might have had on one language....

    I agree that "It would be better to discuss the languages and to refrain from categorizing their speakers."
     
  20. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Alfaaz SaaHib/ah, please do not think for a moment that this thread was started solely due to your mentioning the word "paindu". Far from it. It was merely a catalyst. You have clarified your position in a number of posts and I fully accept your explanation. There are no hard feelings. My purpose was to bring this issue out into the open and to discuss it in a mature adult way, which has been done.
     
  21. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Alfaaz, by no means my post was directed at you. It's directed at everyone who reads and contributes to this forum. My post carries the number 18, it's very far away from the initial one. Above it, I directly addressed Qureshpor SaHib, whose quotation precedes my post. Everybody is free to take my comments to himself/herself or not to do so.

    I'm happy you speak Punjabi fluently, me too, although I'm not a native speaker of Punjabi.

    My remarks are about a general matter, as I find that this thread is the right place to express my views on the topic. I even don't know in which thread the title word was used by you. I'm not only referring to this word, which can be very innocent, but more to a mindset, according to which even people who have Punjabi as their mother-tongue are incomprehensibly ashamed of it and renounce it!!
     

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