Purpose in مضارع

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by Qureshpor, Mar 15, 2011.

  1. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    In the sentence,

    فقمنا الغد قبل طلو ع الشمس نذهب إلى شغلنا اليومي

    is nadzhabu equivalent of "to go"?

    So we got up the next day before sunrise to go to our daily work.

    I think there is a similar examle in Tritton.
    ذهب الأولاد في البحر يسبحون
    The boys went into the sea to swim.
     
  2. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    Yeah; the 'in order to' is usually omitted in this context. In full maybe
    ـ«ذهب الأولاد في البحر من أجل أن يسبحون»ـ
    In British English we could say 'the children went swimming' in a similar fashion.
     
  3. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    The sentence, in fact was...

    دخل الأولاد في البحر يسبحون

    The boys entered the sea to swim

    خرج أمير الجيش يصعد في الجبل و ينظر إلى صفوف العدو

    The commander of the army came out to climb the mountain and to look at the enemy ranks

    Is the above correct?

    اشترى رجل سياره مستعمله كثيرا ما تخرب و بعد أن أنفق عليهافلوساكثيرة قرر أن يبيعها يشتري بدلا منها جملا فما وجد في القاهره كافة جملا واحدا يصلح لحاجته

    A man bought a used car which often used to break down and after he had spent a considerable amount of money he decided to sell it to buy a camel instead of it; but he did not find a single camel in the whole of Cairo suitable for his need.

    Would you say "yashtarii" also is a "purpose" verb here?

    قمنا الغد قنبل طلوع الشمس نذهب إلى شغلنا اليومي

    We got up the next day before sunrise to go to our daily work.
     
  4. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    As I said the 'in order to' is usually omitted and it's perfectly fine to do that, and commonly done.
     
  5. lukebeadgcf

    lukebeadgcf Senior Member

    Cambridge, MA
    American English
    This is all الحال. The imperfect verbs in these sentences add information to the main verb and describe HOW the agent executes the action of the main verb. I disagree with the "in order to" translation strategy--it changes the meaning too much. You can generally translate these verbs as participles.

    Some examples:

    مشى الطلبة إلى الصف يدخنون The students walked to class smoking.

    سافرت إلى روسيا أبحث عن زوجة جميلة I traveled to Russia looking for a beautiful wife.

    اشترى رجل سيارة مستعملة كثيرا ما تخرب وبعد أن أنفق عليها فلوسا كثيرة قرر أن يبيعها يشتري بدلا منها جملا فما وجد في القاهرة كافة جملا واحدا يصلح لحاجته

    A man bought an unreliable used car and after he had spent a considerable amount of money he decided to sell it, buying a camel instead, but he did not find a single apt camel in the whole of Cairo.
     
  6. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    دخل الأولاد في البحر يسبحون

    The boys entered the sea swimming

    would not be appropriate because it implies that they were already swimming even before they set foot in the sea!

    خرج أمير الجيش يصعد في الجبل و ينظر إلى صفوف العدو

    The commander of the army came out climbing the mountain and looking at the enemy ranks

    If we don't go down the route of purpose, one could translate the sentence as follows.

    The commander of the army came out, climbed the mountain and looked at the enemy ranks


    قمنا الغد قنبل طلوع الشمس نذهب إلى شغلنا اليومي

    We got up the next day before sunrise going to our daily work.

    Again, "going" does n't quite fit like a glove.

    كان فلاح يذهب يوما إلى السوق ليبيع حمارا له [فيشتري] آخر بدلا منه

    A farmer was going to the market one day to sell a donkey of his [but he bought] another instead (?)
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  7. lukebeadgcf

    lukebeadgcf Senior Member

    Cambridge, MA
    American English

    سافرت إلى روسيا أبحث عن زوجة

    I apologize. This is a poor example. In any case, I think Arabs usually say:

    سافرت إلى روسيا بحثا عن زوجة

    In the latter, بحثا is an example of المفعول لأجله, which is more readily translated as to/in order to (do the action represented by the noun).

    I retract that example, but I would like to mention that translation from one language to another using set conventions hardly ever yields reasonable-sounding results. There isn't usually a "glove-fit," and you may need to reword the sentence or use an entirely different rhetoric in order to express the same thing idiomatically across languages. As for:

    دخل الأولاد في البحر يسبحون The kids went swimming in the sea.

    How else can you enter the sea without swimming? The action of the imperfect verb (like يسبحون in this sentence) need not be exactly chronologically congruous with the main verb to be الحال.

    But I must admit an error on a previous point. Since this structure seems to be an example of الحال المقدر, which denotes action occurring after the main verb, a "to/in order to" translation strategy seems appropriate.

    دخل الأولاد في البحر يسبحون The kids went the sea to swim.

    Here are some examples Wright gives for الحال المقدر

    جاء إليه يعوده He came to him to visit him.

    أتى إلى عين ماء يشرب He came to a spring to drink.

    ثم استوى على العرش يدبر الأمر then He seated Himself on the throne to administer the rule.

    According to Wright, this is:

    He contrasts this with الحال المُقارِن, which describes congruous action:

    جاء زيد يضحك Zeid came laughing.

    These two structures are identical though, and differentiating between them requires a contextual examination.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  8. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Going back to the other examples:

    خرج أمير الجيش يصعد في الجبل و ينظر إلى صفوف العدو

    How would you reconcile this sentence with what has already been discussed.

    The commander of the army came out climbing the mountain and looking at the enemy ranks or

    The commander of the army came out to climb the mountain and to look at the enemy ranks or
    The commander of the army came out, climbed the mountain and looked at the enemy ranks

    اشترى رجل سياره مستعمله كثيرا ما تخرب و بعد أن أنفق عليهافلوساكثيرة قرر أن يبيعها يشتري بدلا منها جملا فما وجد في القاهره كافة جملا واحدا يصلح لحاجته

    I have concurred with your "buying a camel instead" but on second thoughts this is totally contradictory because the writer goes onto say that in the whole of Cairo he did not find a camel that fitted his bill! Therefore we are left with no choice but to translate it "..to buy a camel instead". Would you agree?


    Similarly:

    كان فلاح يذهب يوما إلى السوق ليبيع حمارا له [فيشتري] آخر بدلا منه

    A farmer was going to the market one day to sell a donkey of his [but he bought] another instead (?)

    If the above is an incomplete "story" and the writer has more to say on this topic, then..

    A farmer was going to the market one day to sell a donkey of his [and to buy] another instead .... but

    Your views please.
     
  9. lukebeadgcf

    lukebeadgcf Senior Member

    Cambridge, MA
    American English
    As I said earlier, I apologize for condemning the "to/in order to" translation strategy. I did not understand the full spectrum of meaning that الحال encompasses. I think "to climb," to look," and "to buy" are all appropriate translations respectively. As for the last sentence, we have a different issue. The particle ف has a wide range of meaning from "but" to "so" to "then." After glancing at Wehr, I think it might be subjunctivizing the verb يشتريَ here, in which case Wehr gives the meaning "so that."

    A farmer went to the market one day to sell a donkey of his so that he could buy another one instead.

    Hope that helps
     
  10. Ustaath Senior Member

    Arabian Peninsula
    Arabic - levantine
    I am not familiar with many of the references you are quoting, but allow me to say that as an Arab, many ( not all) are rather artificially contrived even if technically (grammatically) correct in today's MSA.
    The moral: Learn the principles and try to find examples from contemporary literature :)
     
  11. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I personally have n't made any of the sentences (apart from the very short ones in the qaliilu_l3aqli type thread). They are all from respected Arabic grammar books. People like me need to understand the grammar of the language BEFORE they can start reading its literature. So, we are stuck with whatever is offered by way of examples.Of course, I don't know if they are artificial or natural!
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2011
  12. Mazhara Senior Member

    Urdu, English
    Brother Qureshpor,

    May I quote my expereince, I studied for about 5 years-giving almost 5-6 hours a day, various grammer and morphology books, only to study Qur'aan with my own effort. But confusion never got over.

    Thereafter, one day I found a fine clue to learn Arabic in Qur'aan, verse 25:73. Its regarding use of eyes. And I started again learning grammer and morphology by moving slowly with Qur'aan from first word, a prepositional phrase. Studying about preposition made me recognize all the nouns in Qur'aan whether I knew their meanings or not. And they also helped me to recognize many verbs. Second is possessive phrase, third is adjectival phrase. Then is a nominal sentence, and then a verbal sentence. I think sequenced study will make the job easy, since Arabic words are not much of a problem for Punjabi-Urdu speakers because majority of those we have borrowed in our language.
     
  13. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Yes, I take your point fully. Indeed practice makes perfect. Thank you, brother Mazhar.
     

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