'rose' in Finno-Ugric (Karelian)

Discussion in 'Suomi (Finnish)' started by edwardtheconfessor, Mar 1, 2013.

  1. edwardtheconfessor Senior Member

    English - British
    Hi. Can anyone help me out here, please?
    I need a Finno-Ugric (sometimes called 'Karelian') translation of the word 'rose' (noun i.e. the flower).
    I have already a Finnish translation as ruusu
    Would it be the same in Finno-Ugric?
    Reason for my interest: it is for a doctorate thesis I am working on, the opening chapter; it's part of an illustration.
    The thesis is not about linguistics or philology, but the illustration compares the word for 'rose' in a number of European
    (and some world) languages. From Portugal to the Ural Mountains and from the Arctic Circle to the Southern Mediterranean,
    I find the same word root (modified only a little).
    As the Uni I am submitting to is in Bergen (no, the thesis is not in Norwegian!), it would be helpful I think to also show some
    understanding of at least the existence of other Scandinavian peoples and their languages (like Finno-Ugric).
    The illustration: from Shakespeare : "That which we call a rose, by any other name ..." etc.

    Thanks - edwardtheconfessor

    PS: if it is in Russian characters then a transliteration would be appreciated. Thanks.
     
  2. Määränpää

    Määränpää Senior Member

    Finnish
    "Finno-Ugric" is not a language, it's a group of languages just like "Indo-European".
     
  3. Määränpää

    Määränpää Senior Member

    Finnish
    According to a Finnish-Karelian online dictionary, rose is rooza, ruuzu or ruužu in Karelian.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2013
  4. edwardtheconfessor Senior Member

    English - British
    That's very helpful, Maaranpaa (sorry, I don't seem to be able to get Finnish script on my server). I can therefore suggest in my illustration that each of these three is used, in different 'Karelian' dialects of Finno-Ugric, yes?

    Many thanks - edwardtheconfessor
     
  5. Määränpää

    Määränpää Senior Member

    Finnish
    No! Would you call the dialects of England "different 'English' dialects of Indo-European"?
    You need to check what Finno-Ugric means. :)

    I'm not sure about the relationship between rooza and ruuzu. Ruuzu is marked (uud.) which means "modern". But the examples are from different regions, so there could have been a dialectal difference, too.

    Ruužu seems to mean a paper rose, so I guess you can forget that one.
     
  6. edwardtheconfessor Senior Member

    English - British
    Okay. Thanks for the correction. I do know about the (as they used to be called anyway) 'Ural-Altaic' languages. I'm not a professional philologist, only a seriously interested amateur. I had understood this 'Ural-Altaic' linguistic group to be closely equivalent to the Turanian group of languages - which also includes, as well as Hungarian, Estonian and Finnish (or Suomi ... is that the same? - I show my ignorance here!) and Sami (or Lapp) ... but also Turkish and the various Turkoman languages of central Europe, as well as Mongolian, Japanese and Korean. Now that's a lot of diverse languages!!

    I had thought that the peoples of the Karelian region spoke another language related to Finnish/Suomi .. which I had thought has always been called 'Finno-Ugric'. However, I have followed your links. Many thanks for that. The more I read up on this, the more complex I see it is, and I confess to being a little confused. If you obtained these word translations from a 'Finnish-Karelian' dictionary, then do I understand that there are, at least, different languages spoken there which are closely related to Finnish? Geographically, of course, they are contiguous, and many ethnologists believe that the ancestors of the Finns, Lapps and Estonians and the peoples of the Karelian side of the peninsula are all related and came originally from farther East, perhaps from a very Westerly branch of the nomadic peoples that once roamed all across the Central Asian steppes.

    This is in danger of getting off the thread topic, but I do need to be clear if what I have (which you so kindly looked up for me) are 'Karelian' language words. Or is 'Karelian' nothing more than a group of languages closely related to the language of Finland? If so, should I, for purposes of my illustration, simply call them 'Karelian' variations of, in this case, the same word root? Does that make sense??

    Thanks - edwardtheconfessor
     
  7. altazure Junior Member

    Karelian is a language which is closely related to Finnish. Finno-Ugric is not a single language, but a genetic group of languages which are all related to each other: Finnish, Karelian, Estonian, Hungarian, Udmurt, Komi, and many other languages are part of it.

    The Ural-Altaic language group is not a genetic but a typological group, which means that the languages share similar linguistic features, but it implies no genetic relation between the languages in the group.
     
  8. Määränpää

    Määränpää Senior Member

    Finnish
    More from Wikipedia:
    Karelian, like almost every language (Finnish, English, Russian, Arabic...), is a group of dialects.

    The languages of minorities don't always have a standardized form, because official documents are never written in these languages. In Russia, official documents about roses are written in Russian, so it doesn't really matter what the 'most correct' word for rose in Karelian is. The online dictionary I used was based on spoken material collected from different regions.

    According to the Institute for the Languages of Finland, three different standard Karelian languages are used today. Maybe there are dictionaries for these standard languages somewhere, but not online.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2013

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