Schulbetrieb, Schulphilosophie, Schulsatz, usw. (Mauthner)

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by Löwenfrau, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Hallo!

    Mauthner verwendet sehr häufig dieses Wort Schul- als "Präfix", und manchmal weiss ich nicht, ob ich es als "academic" oder als "school" übersetzen soll (mehrere Beispiele):

    "Nur daß die Zeit, da der Streit im 9. Jahrhundert zuerst lebhaft wurde, von Aristoteles fast ebensowenig wußte wie von Platon, bei Platon fast nur auf Zitate angewiesen war, bei Aristoteles auf die lateinische Übersetzung einiger weniger Bücher und auf einige glossierende Schulbücher, die der geschichtliche Zufall in Ansehen gebracht und erhalten hatte."

    "Schon die Berufung auf das vermeintliche Axiom, die Wesenheiten (entia) seien ohne Not nicht zu vermehren, mußte nach den Gewohnheiten des damaligen Schulbetriebs die Gegner in Verlegenheit bringen. Den Ausschlag gab aber der andere lateinische Schulsatz: res de re non praedicatur; nur ein Wort, ein Begriff, nicht aber ein reales Ding lasse sich von Etwas aussagen. Denkt man bei den Universalien an unsere Gattungswörter oder Gattungsnamen, so leuchtet die Wahrheit dieses Axioms für alle Schulbeispiele der alten Logik sofort ein; das Prädikat wird durch genera und species ausgedrückt, die also für diesen logischen Gebrauch nur Worte, Begriffe und keine Dinge sind;"

    "Wenn Gattungsnamen und Eigenschaften wirkliche Dinge waren, dann konnte die Logik blühen und die Psychologie mußte verkümmern; in Wahrheit erschiene uns der Schulbetrieb der mittelalterlichen Logik gar nicht mehr so tot und unfruchtbar, wie er uns erscheint, wenn wir uns nur in die wortrealistischen Vorstellungen zurückversetzen könnten."

    "Die Weiterentwicklung des englischen Nominalismus hat uns nun so weit geführt, daß wir sehr viele Begriffe der Schulphilosophie als Scheinbegriffe erkannt haben; nicht nur Begriffe, die der offenen oder heimlichen Theologie angehören, wie Gott, Freiheit, Unsterblichkeit, sondern auch die vermeintlichen Grundlagen alles wissenschaftlichen Denkens, wie Ursache, Gesetz."

    Also:



    Schulbücher = academic manuals? / school manuals?
    Schulbetrieb = Academy?; academic práxis?
    Schulsatz = academic proposition?
    Schulbeispiele = academic examples?
    Schulphilosophie = academic philosophy?
     
  2. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    “Schulmänner” are what in English are called “the Scholastics, scholastic philosophy”. Since the renaissance these words have a negative resonance. I think you would want to use words like “scholasticism” in this context.
     
  3. manfy Senior Member

    Singapore
    German - Austria
    A word of caution!!
    Even though I agree with fdb, you would be ill-advised to blindly translate every 'Schul-xxx' as 'scholastic xxx'! If you do so, you might change the intended tone the author is setting.
    You remember, in other sections of Mauthner's text he is using specifically the term 'Scholastiker' when he is referring to the supporters of Scholasticism.

    I'm afraid you will have to look at each individual compound noun that starts with 'Schul-', evaluate the context, and only then decide what is the best idiomatic translation for that specific use!

    I can start you off with the first one:
    Schulbücher = academic manuals? / school manuals? schoolbooks, textbooks
    -------
    Schulsatz = academic proposition? This might be ok.
    Schulsatz here is synonymous to Lehrsatz, so in your context I'd prefer '...the Latin principle
    res de re non praedicatur' or maybe theorem (but that's mainly used in mathematics) or doctrine (but to me that sounds too much like a set of rules)
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
  4. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I was just about to ask if I shouldn't be very cautious in "blindly translating every 'Schul-xxx' as 'scholastic xxx'" ...

    I needed to know if, here and there, the word could be translated as "academic". The doubt has arisen because normally the word "Schule", and hence "Schul-xxx", refers to the child School. Which would be awkward in the context, though Mauthner sometimes does mention children school and learning of philosophy.

    Anyway, I understand your point! Thanks a lot for helping!

    EDIT: my further attempts:

    Gewohnheiten des damaligen Schulbetriebs = habits of the Academy / academic práxis of the time
    Schulbeispiele = academic/ didatic examples
    Schulphilosophie = academic philosophy


     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
  5. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Schulphilosophie in this context is definitely "scholastic philosophy", "scholasticism", not "academic (i.e., Platonic) philosophy".
     
  6. manfy Senior Member

    Singapore
    German - Austria
    I tend to disagree! "Schule" and particularly "Schul-xxx" in compound nouns does not automatically refer to children's schools or primary education alone. It covers the whole range of educational institutions from Kindergarten to post-graduaduate courses.
    However, it's true that in German it can have a strong connotation of basic education relating to the first 8 years of one's scholastic history. That connotation is stronger than in English, where you have common terms like 'law school' or 'business school' and nobody would correlate those terms to Kindergarten or primary school.

    So, your job of translating Mauthner has just become harder! You will have to look at each compound noun starting with "Schul-" and try to figure out whether it is a common German word, simply describing a relation to general scholastic education or whether it is intended to emphasize the connotation of primary education.
    As I've seen from your previous posts, Mauthner likes to play with words and when he is criticizing somebody that he doesn't like, he often uses ambiguous terms. Quite intentionally, I suppose!
    Unfortunately, such word plays are very hard or sometimes impossible to translate into another language. If in doubt, just forget about the word plays and translate only the obvious meaning of the source text.

    Regarding your specific question on whether you can use 'academic' as translation for 'Schul-'. Yes, if the context supports an academic setting then 'academic' usually works in English.

    Schulphilosophie -> same as fdb, I'd go with 'scholastic philosophy', but not 'Scholasticism' because I don't think that Mauthner is referring to the medieval scholasticism, but simply 'philosophy, the way it is taught in schools/universities' (as opposed to 'real' philosophy that is formed, shaped, developed in the real world, i.e. outside the comfort of academic settings)

    Schulbeispiele = didactic examples -> this sounds fine. In your context you could also use 'paradigms' or 'textbook example' (I think this is a common phrase in American English)
    (or 'scholastic examples/illustrations' -> on second thought, I don't like these so much)

    Schulbetrieb = multiple translations are possible. Within your context I'd prefer 'academic practices' (for both instances)
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2013
  7. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I see what you say, manfy. So it is really a matter of particular cases and contexts. But now I'm aware of the use, in German, of "Schule-" in the sense of "Scholastik" too, and of "academic" as well. It's much easier now.

    And you're right: in most of the cases it is impossible to translate the wordplays of the author, mainly because it would not sound idiomatic.
     
  8. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Hi again,
    The compound "Schulxxx" has appeared again... Now it is "Schulfrage":
    "Dem Begriffe qualitas fehlt von Hause aus eine solche Beziehung zur Ontologie; er drückt ursprünglich eine Schülerfrage der Grammatik aus und ist, als Aristoteles die Hauptredeteile der Grammatik für logische Kategorien ausgab, einfach in die Logik hinübergenommen worden."
    "Such a relation to ontology misses from the very start in the concept of qualitas [I'm pretty sure this use of "miss" is not completely correct]; it expresses a didactic question of Grammar/ an elementary question of Grammar (in the sense of primary school maybe?).."
    Since he is talking about Aristotle, the use of scholastic for "Schulxxx" doesn't seem much appropriate here... What would you say?
     
  9. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    The concept of qualitas is fundamentally unrelated to ontology; originally, students of grammar used to deal with the question about qualitas. The concept was simply accepted into logic when Aristotle presented the principal parts of grammar as categories of logic.



    Hauptrede, as distinguished from Vorrede.
     
  10. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I see. Or "... a question that students of grammar used to ask" (to maintain the structure)
     
  11. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    Not really. In grammatical parsing, the question about qualitas has to be asked, I believe. Like the question about tense has to be asked. So it's not a question an eager student comes up with but a question that must systematically be dealt with: A student of grammar must ask (himself) that question.
     
  12. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I see. Well, that's exactly what I meant, guess in English doesn't sound the same as in Portuguese.
     
  13. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    But in the following case I think it's probably "scholastic logic":

    "Für die Physik ist die Schullogik, die durch mehr als zwei Jahrtausende in Quantität und Qualität zwei getrennte Kategorien sah, die Qualität nicht als den Oberbegriff der Quantität erkannte, – für die Physik ist Aristoteles auch in dieser Beziehung verhängnisvoll geworden. Die Peripatetiker sträubten sich auch nach Galilei noch dagegen, daß man die Qualitäten der Körper auf Quantitäten zurückführte"
     
  14. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    I'd say scholarly logic.

    Isn't scholastic ​firmly tied to the one school of thought by that name as soon as it's about philosophy?
     
  15. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    So you disagree with manfy and fdb:
    manfy says "scholastic" can mean "academic", not necessarily "belonging to Scholasticism".
    But, what you call "scholarly logic" can be understood as "academic logic", correct?
     
  16. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    Yes. M. could have said akademisch but he didn't. Schule, scholastic, scholarly are all from the same root, with scholarly steering clear of the confusion possibly arising from ​scholastic.
     
  17. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese

    I understand. Now I still have one problem: in Portuguese we don't have a correspondent to "scholarly" other than "acadêmico" ("academic"). We do have "escolar", but this is normally understood as "pertaining to primary school"...
     
  18. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    What about douto? From docere​ after all, which is what all school is about.
     
  19. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Yes, that's an option.
    But what is wrong with "academic" after all?
     
  20. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    You're right, academic is good. academic logic​ is very common on the Net.
     
  21. Hutschi

    Hutschi Senior Member

    Dresden, Universum
    German, Germany
    Hi, I am not shure in English.
    We should see it in contrast, and we should see analogy.

    I see the analogy to "Schulmedizin".
    This is the traditional "scientific" science as taught in universities.
    The contrast are all new and/or different.

    In case of Schullogik, I think it means traditional logic as taught and widely agreed. The Aristoteles logic survived Scholastic, and it is valid until today, sometimes in different formula notations.
    The problem is that the logic of Aristoteles became the only valid (in scientific thinking) one for more than 2000 years.

    "Schullogik" includes critic to this concept, while "traditionelle Logik" is neutral.

    The contrast is "moderne Logik" - with a lot of differences.

    If "Scholastic" ended with the middle age in English, too, it is not "Scholastic logic" as far as I understand. I agree here Schimmelreiter#14

    If you can use "scholastic" also for rather current streams to critize them it is ok.

    I do not know how Portuguese works here.

    "Academic logic" works in the contrast "academic logic of the time" vs. "new logic".
    (If there is no contrast, it might suggest that it is the same as today.)

    So "scholarly" solves the problem of time for "scholastic".

    "Academic logic" is good - keeping the contrast. But is is missing the implicit critic of "Schul". May be: 'academic' logic or 'academic logic'?

    It should work in your language.
     
  22. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    doctrinal logic preserves the condescension, I believe.
     
  23. bearded man

    bearded man Senior Member

    Milan
    Italian
    I don't know in Portuguese, but in some Romance languages - like mine - the use of the word 'scolastico' is different and much more widespread than in English. We say libri scolastici for Schulbücher, logica scolastica for scholarly logic, etc. We even say io uso un linguaggio scolastico to express 'I use a flatly correct language, like the one taught at school'. If in Portuguese the situation is the same, probably the adjective 'scolastico' can be applied to many of the above cases without too many problems.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2014
  24. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    We do have this usage of "escolástico" too, but we hardly use it. If someone is reading a philosophical text, and all the more if the author of this text makes frequent references to Scholasticism - both things occur with Mauthner - he would automatically understand "escolástico" as "pertaining to Scholasticism". It would lead to misunderstandings...
     
  25. bearded man

    bearded man Senior Member

    Milan
    Italian
    OK, it was just a possibility.
     
  26. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    I was wrong. I gathered from this thread that by Hauptredeteile, M. means the constituents of a sentence (syntactic/functional constituents).
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2014
  27. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    It means major parts of speech, doesn't it?
     
  28. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    No, it means the constituents of a sentence, as I wrote above. He calls types of words Redeteile (see other thread).
     
  29. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    What is the difference? Aren't the types of words the major parts of speech? That's tricky, because the German expression seems to perfectly correspond to the, for example, English concept of major parts of speech... :confused:
     
  30. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    I find logic in the assumption that when types of words are Redeteile, Hauptredeteile ​should be the constituents of a sentence, e.g. subject, predicate, object.
     
  31. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Yes, it is logic. But apparently you are just substituting "important" by "constituents". "Constituents" make more clear that they are indispensable, but the core meaning is basically the same...
     
  32. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    Why is the core meaning basically the same of the category subject-predicate-object-etc. and the category noun-verb-adjective-etc.​? Neither of which categories is more "indispensable" than the other: they are both equally "indispensable" to a language and its grammar.
     
  33. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I meant "important" and "constituent" have basically the same meaning, but "constituent" is stronger.
     
  34. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I forgot to post the previous paragraph of the same text in which the expression Schullogik appears for the first time:
    "Ich will nur von fern daran erinnern, daß der Scharfsinn der Scholastiker diese Lücke der Schullogik sogar sehr fein interpretierte; sie faßten das Subjekt des Satzes (subjectum noch im mittelalterlichen Sinne, d.h. das Objekt der Aussage) allein als Ding, das Prädikat allein als Begriff; und so kam Abaelard zu der geistreichen Regel: res de re praedicari non potest, die wirklich auf die eigentlichen Subsumtionsurteile gut zu passen scheint."
    I suppose this reinforces the inadequacy of rendering Schullogik as scholastic logic...
     

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