se te, se le, se nos, se ha

Discussion in 'Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés' started by jota_pe, Sep 17, 2005.

  1. jota_pe New Member

    USA English & Spanish
    Hi everyone i've been studying and learning spanish for a little over three years now and I'm doing ok! However I still can not grasp the pronombre "se" in certain aspects of its usage and I am hoping that you fine people can help me out a little bit.

    I know already that basicly
    se ha realizado means it has been accomplished but what I wish to know is

    Does the "se" mean the action of it being accomplished?

    also why is "se" placed before the "te" in the following sentance?

    Al verla, Jesús se dirigió a ella y le dijo: “Mujer se te pone en libertad de tu debilidad.”

    In english the same phase would be "Woman you are released from your weakness."
    What I really wish to know is if anyone could explain why the se is placed before the se, le, te, or nos here are some examples.

    se te pone en libertad
    se le llama
    se le llame
    se nos a dado
    se te ocurre algo mas?

    I've asked many spanish speaking friends to explain its usage "se" , however to them its easy to comprehend having been raised speeking spanish and they can not really give me a clear answer to which im satisfied. I know someone out there can help me understand.

    Thank you very much!!!
    jadon
     
  2. Rayines Senior Member

    Buenos Aires
    Castellano/Argentina
    Hallo, jota pe:"Se" is used in these cases to form Passive Voice; the pronoun "se" is accompanied by the verb in Active Voice and the subject is only possible in third person singular or plural. It's called in Spanish "Pasiva refleja". In your examples, you say "Se te pone en libertad", instead of "Tú eres puesto en libertad".
     
  3. Tino_no Senior Member

    Sinaloa
    Español mexicano
    Yo- se me
    Tú- se te
    El/Ella- se le
    Nosotros- se nos
    Ustedes- se les
    Ellos- Se les

    Espero que esto te ayude
     
  4. jota_pe New Member

    USA English & Spanish
    So if...
    se te pone en libertad = Tú eres puesto en libertad

    ¿se te ocurre algo más? would mean = ?

    also
    se le y se les are used in the Passive Voice?
     
  5. jacinta Senior Member

    California
    USA English
    Did you think of anything else?
    Or:
    Can you think of anything else?

    Now, you are not going to like this translation because it will make no sense to you if you try to figure out literally what the Spanish means. You just can't translate things literally.
     
  6. jota_pe New Member

    USA English & Spanish
    se te pone en libertad = Tú eres puesto en libertad. means almost the same thing.

    ¿se te ocurre algo más? significaria = ?

    queria una respuesta en espanol
     
  7. Eugens

    Eugens Senior Member

    Argentina Spanish
    Hi! :)
    The matter of when using the "se", or rather, the function the "se" perfoms in different kinds of sentences is complex to explain. We native speakers use it instinctively, many times being unaware of which syntactic function the "se" is fulfilling in our sentences. We just use it. This may be the reason why your Spanish-speaking friends can tell you whether or not a certain sentence should carry a "se", but not explain you exactly why.

    In high school, I was taught that, when parsing sentences, we could find 5 types of "se's". Namely:
    1) "se" as a direct object
    2) "se" as an indirect object
    3) "se" to indicate passive voice
    4) "se" as "signo de cuasi-reflejo" o "se cuasi-refleja" (I don't know how to translate this)
    5) impersonal se

    I have dug out my ring binders from that time in order to give you an example of a "se" of each type:
    1) El llanto acaba siempre en el momento en que uno se suena enérgicamente.
    2) Los vecinos se lo comunicaron al Jefe de Gobierno porteño.
    3) A partir de la expulsión de los jesuitas, se impone a los indios la lengua castellana obligatoria y única.
    4) Nadie se resigna a quedar mudo y sin memoria. o Se alegraron al saber la noticia.
    5) En las misiones se hablaba en guaraní y se leía en guaraní.

    Unfortunately, I myself have forgotten a lot about these classifications. Maybe someone might find a good website (there must be one) explaining this further.
    I hope this has helped a little. :)
     
  8. Eugens

    Eugens Senior Member

    Argentina Spanish
    I think that the only case you can do the transformation you want to do from sentence with "se" to sentence in passive voice is, precisely, when your original sentence has a "se" to indicate passive voice. For example in my sentence number 3, it would be:
    3) A partir de la expulsión de los jesuitas, la lengua castellana obligatoria y única es impuesta a los indios.

    De todos modos, repito, no me acuerdo mucho. Hice una búsqueda rápida en internet y encontré estos dos sitios (me parece que los tipos de "se" en estos lugares aparecen con nombres diferentes de los que yo di). Quizá alguien encuentre un sitio mejor o pueda explicar el tema mejor. ;)
    Clasificación de las construcciones con se
    Tipos de SE
    ¡Saludos! :)
     
  9. Artrella Banned

    BA
    ARGENTINA Sp/Eng

    :arrow: Mira esto
     
  10. Rayines Senior Member

    Buenos Aires
    Castellano/Argentina
    Hola, jota_pe: Mira, de tus ejemplos, comparando con el cuadro que tan bien dio Eugen, se corresponderían de la siguiente manera:
    *Se te pone en libertad >>>>Tú eres puesto en libertad>>>>3)
    *Se le llama>>>>>Él es llamado >>>>>>3)
    *Se nos ha dado >>>>Algo ha sido dado a nosotros>>>>puede entrar en 3) o en 5) (impersonal): a veces hay dudas entre estos dos.
    *Se te ocurre algo más?>>>>Está utilizado como verbo pronominal, en el sentido de venirse una idea a la mente de repente (RAE), se conjuga siempre con el pronombre: ocurrírseme, ocurrírsete, etc. No sé si entraría en la forma 4) (cuasi-refleja), aquí yo estaría en duda.

    Como ves, no es nada fácil. Cualquier cosa, preguntanos otros ejemplos concretos en los que dudes.
     
  11. jota_pe New Member

    USA English & Spanish
    Muchísimas gracias a todos ustedes tanto los de habla hispana como ingles por ayudarme a entender ese asunto del idioma.
    Sigo apriendiendo

    jae pee
     
  12. jota_pe New Member

    USA English & Spanish
    Hi agian
    which would be correct.

    Se le cayó las plumas or
    Se le cayeron las plumas?
     
  13. mylam Senior Member

    Texas
    United States English
    The subject of the sentence is "las plumas", so it's "Se le cayeron las plumas."
     
  14. Stoichkov8 Banned

    spain spanish
    Se te ocurre algo mas?= ¿Can you come up with anything else?
     
  15. Paul Wessen Senior Member

    San Jose Costa Rica
    USA English
    Perhaps it will help you if I add one other approach which I have found helpful, because the whole se thing was troublsome for me, too.

    In many, many cases. /se/ is used when the Verb in English is used with a Preposition. For example.
    Juan ate it. (Juan lo comió) but: Juan ate it UP. (Juan SE lo comió.)
    I woke UP = ME despertó.
    Ana sat DOWN. = Ana SE sentó.
    Jorge went AWAY = Jorge SE fué etc, etc, etc

    If you know any German, you will find the same pattern regarding separable prefixes.

    Hope this helps a bit.

    -------------------------- Paul
     
  16. nikvin Senior Member

    Spain
    UK/France English/French/Spanish
    Paul, your example seems good, up to a point..........
    john ate it, and john ate it up dont really quite mean the same, in English...

    but I woke up at 8. or I woke at 8 would both have the same meaning and be me desperté a las 8

    she sat down on the sofa, she sat on the sofa, se sentó en el sofá

    he went away, he went to the match, se fué ,se fué al partido...........

    Basically, most useages are something that just doesnt happen in English
    so can´t really be equated to english examples, except, when in English one would use myself, etc .
    somewhat old fashioned and not often used in English is the one format ,
    easier for a french speaker when on is more naturally used , and ofetn comes close to the use of se in Spanish
     
  17. Paul Wessen Senior Member

    San Jose Costa Rica
    USA English
    Hello, Nivkin, and thanks for your interest.
    I didn't mean to imply that the translations of my examples would always be precise. However, bear in mind that we are trying to give some direction (no matter how feeble) to a student who is haplessly thrashing around trying to find any crutch to lead him out of the wilderness. So perhaps my advice concerning the prepositions should be...
    "If you can possibly find any way to use the English verb with a preposition (that doesn't have its own object, of course) in this sentence any other sentence, then your best bet is that you can use se with the Spanish Verb." "And get it right most of the time."

    I believe I can stand by my example with eating.

    Poppa Bear ate his porridge. (normal behavior, nothing startling about that), but Goldilocks ate Baby Bear's porridge all up. (Horrors!!! Wolfed it down, as it were!)

    Ana comió su pizza con gentileza, porque es bien educada, pero Jorge se lo comió la suya como si fuera hambriente.

    Saludos ---------------------- Paul

    ***** correcciones bienvenidas *****
     
  18. nikvin Senior Member

    Spain
    UK/France English/French/Spanish
    Paul

    totally agree about trying to help, however........ sometimes...one can give wrong idea, hence my post.
    I DID and do agree with you re the eating example.........
    not so much with the others.

    comerse, tends to mean eat it al up, wolf it down, rather than just eat...........
    Sometimes (personal opinion admittedly) a little help, can be counterproductive to (some) people, because rather than taking things as a clue to the right direction they can take it as gospel!

    The whole reflexive verb thing can be difficult for English only speakers to take on board, especially as in may instances, it isnt needed , in order to be understood, although occasionally the meaning changes. Abit like learning that to be, can be ser/ estar / and sometimes tener. A concept thats hard to grasp, and some simplified suggestions, can be harmful in the long run
     
  19. DaleC Senior Member

    As for word order: there is no reason for it, at least from the standpoint of practical language teaching. It's like asking why English statements have the default order subject verb object. (If reasons could be traced, the arguments would be too theoretical for the masses to follow, and they would probably, as mentioned, have no practical implications for helping learners learn better).

    se, te, me, le, lo, la, nos, and os are not just any pronouns. They're unstressed pronouns (termed clitics). Clitics have an obligatory order with respect to one another. The order in Spanish is se, 2d person, 1st person, 3d person.

    As for meaning: 'se' has many meanings, even one or two that are not generally recognized, but only have been discussed in linguistics journals. Textbooks for the general learner recognize five meanings. Apparently, you feel you already grasp the meanings, you just wanted to give names to them and refine your understanding.

    But to answer a specific statement you made: no, 'se' does not refer to completion of action. 'se' as a pronoun refers to a participant in the action or event.
     
  20. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    ...I think.

    In many cases, the Spanish verb is also prepositional, or simple, though. I dare say in most cases.

    When one of the pronouns is "se", it always comes first.

    Regarding the meaning of these pronouns, see this.
     
  21. Alude New Member

    Spanish, Spain
    ¿Entonces no hay una traducción literal para "se..."?

    ¿Cómo sería la oración "Su alma se pudre"?

    ________

    Edit: Perdón Rayines, para la próxima leeré todo.
     
  22. Rayines Senior Member

    Buenos Aires
    Castellano/Argentina
    Alude: has traído a la luz este viejísimo thread; te recomiendo leerlo cuidadosamente. En sus respuestas, los links y otros threads a los que remiten, está absolutamente contestada tu pregunta.
    Creo que pudrirse es simplemente un verbo pronominal.
    "Se" puede traducirse en algunos casos, como en los verbos reflexivos (itself/himself/herself).
     
  23. Ivy29 Senior Member

    MEDELLÍN
    COLOMBIA-Español
    Este 'SE' es un NON-FAULT SE.
    se le cayeron las plumas.

    Hay situaciones con los clíticos distintas a tus ejemplos :
    Según KANY, autor citado por OLGA FERNÁNDEZ, en su libro los pronombres átonos, pág 26 : < en Hispanoamérica es habitual colocar el morfema de plural de un ACUSATIVO singular, si va precedido por un dativo referido a más de una persona.


    LES (IO) doy el regalo (singular, DO) a los niños (IO)=
    SE LOS DOY. Correct.

    Ivy29
     
  24. Jellby

    Jellby Senior Member

    Spanish (Spain)
    Que se haga no quiere decir que sea correcto. A esta costumbre en particular no le veo el sentido, "lo" se refiere al regalo, ponerlo en plural porque se lo dé a varias personas... no encaja.

    Si doy una flor... ¿"se las doy"?
    Si os doy un regalo a vosotros (aunque ya sé que en América no se usa): ¿"os los doy"? ¿"te los doy"?
    Si doy un regalo a ellas... ¿"se las doy"? (si puedo desplazar el plural, ¿por qué no el femenino?)

    Estoy de acuerdo con que se usa, y cuando uno se acostumbra puede parecer intuitivo en un primer momento. Pero no puedo aceptar que sea correcto.
     
  25. Ivy29 Senior Member

    MEDELLÍN
    COLOMBIA-Español
    Según la autora Olga Fernández Soriano es correcta, pues es una ley (KANY) de transformación de los clíticos. Tú que estás en ESPAÑA, le puedes escribir a la UNIVERSIDAD AUTÓNOMA de Madrid donde es PROFESORA y le señalas ese error.
    A mí me suena muy bien y correcta.
    Como el incremento clítico de objeto indirecto de las construcción IMPERSONAL : se respeta a los ancianos = SE LES RESPETA. ( a pesar de ser COMPLEMENTO DIRECTO : a los ancianos.
    Felicidades
    Ivy29
     
  26. Jellby

    Jellby Senior Member

    Spanish (Spain)
    Es posible que lo haga, pero para escribir por correo electrónico (incluso por correo normal) no es necesario estar en España, si la señora Fernández estuviera en la Isla de Pascua, también podría escribirle ;)

    Pero ¿te has parado a pensar en la lógica?

    Les doy un regalo a los niños
    Se (a los niños) lo (un regalo) doy
    ¿Cómo se justifica poner "lo", que se refiere a "un regalo" en plural?

    El ejemplo que pones de oraciones impersonales es otro cantar, ahí sí se pone el plural en el pronombre que tiene un referente plural:

    Se respeta a los ancianos
    Se les/los (a los ancianos) respeta
     
  27. Hiro Sasaki Senior Member

    Osaka, Japn
    Japan, Japanese
    Parece que no esta todavia en libertad, y entonces, quiere decir "Tu
    sera en libertad en un un futuro muy cercano ?

    saludos

    Hiro Sasaki
     
  28. baz259 Senior Member

    english england

    Hi, would these sentences be correct using se
    Se puede comprar //// aqui= can one buy //// here
    Se ve los torres de aqui= one can see the towers from here.
    barry
     
  29. Rayines Senior Member

    Buenos Aires
    Castellano/Argentina
    Hola Hiro: puedes mantener ambas estructuras en el futuro:

    "Serás puesto en libertad (próximamente)">>> voz pasiva,
    o
    "Se te pondrá en libertad (próximamente)" >>> pasiva refleja (con "se").

    Coloquialmente, más bien diríamos (por lo menos en Argentina):
    "Te van a poner en libertad próximamente" (Recuerda el hilo sobre "presente perfecto y futuro") :).
     
  30. Rayines Senior Member

    Buenos Aires
    Castellano/Argentina
    :)
     
  31. Ivy29 Senior Member

    MEDELLÍN
    COLOMBIA-Español

    Ivy29
     
  32. generatrix New Member

    english world
    This is the way I always describe the pasiva refleja to myself:

    Jesus se dirigió
    Jesus directed himself

    se te pone en libertad
    It puts itself -- to you -- in liberty

    se nos ha dado
    it has given itself to us

    se te ocurre
    it occurs itself to you

    Inanimate objects, or concepts, if you will, are personified when the reflexive construction is used.

    se te pone en libertad
    In this case, an abstract "it" puts itself to you. "It" being the totality of circumstances in the world.

    se te ocurre
    In this case, "it" is the thing which may (or may not) have occurred to the listener.
    It occurs itself to you
     
  33. Ivy29 Senior Member

    MEDELLÍN
    COLOMBIA-Español

    SE TE OCURRE, this verb is pronominal so the 'SE' is a marker of the verb, and the 'ITSELF' has NOT place there.
    Also with IMPERSONAL construction because there is NOT subject.

    Ivy29
     
  34. generatrix New Member

    english world
    I understand that the Spanish phrases (e.g., "se te occurre") that I used above are not typically described in the way that I described them, and also that the different phrases I used have different textbook grammatical classifications from each other. Se te Occure -- "it" (the idea) occurred itself to me. This interpretation works despite the typical grammatical explanation. Grammatical classifcations are the "map" not the "territory."
     
  35. Ivy29 Senior Member

    MEDELLÍN
    COLOMBIA-Español
    I do agree with your perception of ITSELF but in Spanish the PRONOMINAL VERB, especially the OBLIGATORY PRONOMINALS is just a marker ( necessary, in INTRANSITIVE VERBS this personal increment with ME, TE, SE, NOS, OS is a type of reflexive ( describing the person acting as the GRAMMATICAL SUBJECT). In the facultative PRONOMINAL, the pronouns used change the meaning using 'SE' or not .
    SPECIFICATION = Las tropas ocuparon la ciudad; los concejales se OCUPAN DE LA CIUDAD ( It is a prepositional object= de la ciudad).

    To clarify your PERCEPTION which is CORRECT, ONLY in the obligatory usage of the REAL PRONOMINALS the SE is a MARKER as in IMPERSONAL CONSTRUCTION, but in the others is a REFLEXIVE as you clearly stated.
    Thanks for your question and statement.
    Feliz tarde
    Ivy29
     
  36. AndrewFoo New Member

    China & Chinese
    Thanks all of you. I am facing the same problem. I am a Chinese, learning Spanish. The forum is helpful.
     

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