segít vkinek vmit csinálni

Discussion in 'Magyar (Hungarian)' started by 123xyz, Jun 1, 2013.

  1. 123xyz

    123xyz Senior Member

    Skopje, Macedonia
    Macedonian
    I'm wondering how one expresses sentences where there is one main verb whose object/adverbial complement is a phrase/clause where there is another verb. I suppose this is expressed using the subjunctive, but I'm not sure.
    For example, how do you say "he helped me bring the box" where the first verb is "help" and then "bring" is the second verb in the complement to the first verb?
    Is it "azzal segített, hogy hozzam a dobozt" with the second verb in the subjunctive in a separate "hogy" clause?

    Thank you in advance
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2013
  2. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    There is infinite in Hungarian too, we use infinitive in many cases when other IE languages use it.

    Segített a dobozt hozni. >> segít [help] + hozni [to bring]
     
  3. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Hello 123xyz,

    There is no subjunctive in either (En/Hu) sentences.
    The second verb is an infinitive in Hungarian the same way as it is in English (with or without to): segített (el)hozni a dobozt.
    In English it is easy to know how to use a "structure" like this because a good dictionary will indicate it (e.g. "to help sy (to) do sg"), unfortunately I don't think there is a clear indication like that in Hungarian dictionaries. (In two language dictionaries there is more chance, also maybe in those that are specially made for language teaching books - but you would have to find the right book for that.)

    I have looked in my two volume Magyar Értelmező Szótár and the example with this structure is fairly well hidden:

    segít ts és tn ige 1. tn Vkinek a munkáján tevékeny közreműködésével könnyít. ~ a feleségének a házi munkában; ~ tanulni.

    But then it is true that a one language dictionary is supposed to reveal the possible meanings rather than the usage.
     
  4. 123xyz

    123xyz Senior Member

    Skopje, Macedonia
    Macedonian
    Thank you for the replies. So, the infinitive is always used in such cases and the subjunctive is not applicable?
     
  5. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    segít + hogy + felszólító mód [subjunctive?] >>> possible, too

    Segíts, hogy élhessek! >>> name of a foundation for sick children
     
  6. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Yes, there is such a possibility,too (as well as lots of others) but I would say that what you call subjunctive is not there because of the verb in the main sentence (in our case "segít") but because of the nature of the subsentence.
    So it is a topic belonging to the classification of the different types of compound sentences in Hungarian rather than what a verb needs after it.
     
  7. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    We all know that imperative mood and subjunctive have much in common in many languages.

    The excellent textbook of Hungarian by Carol Rounds (2001) Routledge on page 41. gives the title: Subjunctive and subordinate clauses
    I think foreigners consider that subjunctive and I agree with them.
    We haven't learnt that at school, because the there is no difference (Hungarian, Czech) unlike Romance languages.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2013
  8. 123xyz

    123xyz Senior Member

    Skopje, Macedonia
    Macedonian
    I did mean "felszólító mód" when I talked about the subjunctive - I didn't know how to translate it otherwise and found that the "felszólító mód" is quite similar to what is called subjunctive in some European languages.
    Thank you for the explanation - I suppose I have to get more used to such types of compound sentences to be able to tell when the "
    felszólító mód" is acceptable and when the infinitive. I suppose I see how name of the foundation for sick children is different - it says "help me, so that I may live" rather than "help me live".

     
  9. Olivier0 Senior Member

    Toulouse
    français - France
    The potential (-hat/het) is often associated with subjonctive (felszólitó mód) but the meaning is really "help me to live".
    -- Olivier
     

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