she herself

Discussion in 'English Only' started by bet2173, Dec 13, 2012.

  1. bet2173 Senior Member

    "Turkish-English"
    Good evening all,

    Is the "she herself" in the below sentence belong to Rebecca or Urfried?

    "Rebecca retreated. Her importunities had prevailed upon Urfried to suffer her to quit the turret, and Urfried had employed her services where she herself would most gladly have paid them, by the bedside of the wounded Ivanhoe."(Ivanhoe)


    Many thanks,
     
  2. Egmont Senior Member

    Massachusetts, U.S.
    English - U.S.
    Rebecca would have gladly have paid for the privilege of taking care of Ivanhoe, if Urfried had not employed her to do that.
     
  3. velisarius

    velisarius Senior Member

    Greece
    British English (Sussex)
    I don't get the idea of "paying for" the privilege. I'd say it means she would gladly have given of her services, without being asked.
     
  4. PaulQ

    PaulQ Senior Member

    UK
    English - England
    I don't think it is anything to do with money. It is the phrasal verb "to pay service" = to render service - now only found in "to pay lip service."

    "... Urfried had employed her services where she herself would most gladly have paid them"
     
  5. Loob

    Loob Senior Member

    English UK
    I agree with Egmont: I think "she herself" refers to Rebecca.

    But you're right that it's not clear in isolation, bet: it's only context that can tell you who's being referred to.
     
  6. PaulQ

    PaulQ Senior Member

    UK
    English - England
    Without pronouns:

    "Rebecca retreated. Rebecca's importunities had prevailed upon Urfried to suffer Ulfried to quit the turret, and Urfried had employed Ulfried's services (where Rebecca would most gladly have paid them) by the bedside of the wounded Ivanhoe."


    I think Sir Walter stayed up too late when writing this. :)
     
  7. Loob

    Loob Senior Member

    English UK
    I think it's Urfried had employed Rebecca's services....

    But I also agree that it's confusing:).
     
  8. velisarius

    velisarius Senior Member

    Greece
    British English (Sussex)
    With this interpretation you are saying that Rebecca had persuaded Urfried to allow Urfried to quit the turret and Urfried had employed her own services...I think that doesn't make much sense.
     
  9. bet2173 Senior Member

    "Turkish-English"
    This is exactly what I got from that sentence, too, but I just wanted to make sure due to the "she herself" part coming just after Urfried and confusing me as if it is referring to Urfried.
     
  10. bet2173 Senior Member

    "Turkish-English"
    Actually, sorry what I understood from that sentence was;

    "Rebecca retreated. Rebecca's importunities had prevailed upon Urfried to suffer Ulfried to quit the turret, and Urfried had employed Rebecca's services (where Rebecca would most gladly have paid them) by the bedside of the wounded Ivanhoe."

    Meaning; "after that much insistence Rebecca at last gained Urfried's permission to leave the turret and Urfried as a requite of this permission made use of Rebecca's services (where Rebecca would voluntarily and gladly accept even if Urfried didn't ask from her) by the bedside of Ivanhoe.

    Am I wrong with this?
     
  11. velisarius

    velisarius Senior Member

    Greece
    British English (Sussex)
    You've got it now :thumbsup:
     
  12. PaulQ

    PaulQ Senior Member

    UK
    English - England
    No. That is not it:

    http://pd.sparknotes.com/lit/ivanhoe/section29.html
    Ulfried, who was captive, with Rebecca, in the turret, speaks:
    then we have:
    I think that's it. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2012
  13. bet2173 Senior Member

    "Turkish-English"
    But before that dialogue starting with "and you, daughter of an accursed race...", she (Urfried) says:

    So it's Rebecca not Urfried who is quitting the turret with the permission of Urfried after her (Rebecca's) importunities.


    and then comes the famous sentence:

    Suffer means to permit. So after insisting she was able to persuade Urfried to permit her (Rebecca) to quit the turret
    And Urfried had made use of her (Rebecca's) services, where she (Rebecca) herself would most gladly have paid them (in requite of the permission, I guess)

    And then comes this:
    So she sneaks out of Ivanhoe's chamber to talk to the priest and Urfried is pissed off with this.

    Is that not right. I'm really confused now:)
     
  14. lucas-sp Senior Member

    English - Californian
    I understand this completely differently: Urfried has Rebecca do the services that Urfried would much rather have done herself.
    The "she herself" refers to Urfried (who is trapped in the turret and thus can't do the services she is having Rebecca do), not to Rebecca.
     
  15. bet2173 Senior Member

    "Turkish-English"
    Why do you say she is "trapped" in the turret? She has the key to the prison cell where she and Rebecca are kept. She gets out of the cell and leaves Rebecca by herself.
     
  16. lucas-sp Senior Member

    English - Californian
    I don't know anything about the plot of Ivanhoe - I just thought from Paul's explanation that Urfried was trapped in the turret. But it doesn't really matter. The "herself," to me, makes it clear that "she herself" refers to Urfried and not to Rebecca.
     
  17. velisarius

    velisarius Senior Member

    Greece
    British English (Sussex)
    I don't see all the difficulty here. Scott names Rebecca at the beginning of the sentence, and all the 'she's' and 'her's' refer back to Rebecca. Where the other woman is meant, she is referred to by name.
     

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