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Shop

Discussion in 'All Languages' started by ThomasK, Jan 5, 2012.

  1. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Could you tell how you translate shop?

    I just mean the general word for the place where we buy things, or well, that small place, I mean, where we bought things. I do not mean special shops, like the grocer's, butcher's, not just the corner shop. (It might not be that simple sometimes, but OK...) Adn of course a refer to the origin of the word is very welcome !

    Dutch: winkel (corner)
    English : shop (originally a shed ?)
    French: magasin
    German: Laden or Geschäft
    ...
     
  2. Fericire

    Fericire Senior Member

    South America
    Portuguese (Brazil)
    In Portuguese: loja, from French loge.
     
  3. DearPrudence

    DearPrudence Dépêche Mod

    IdF
    French (lower Normandy)
    French:
    un magasin (nm) (general)
    une boutique (nf) (smaller)

    Sorry, I don't know the origin of these words.
     
  4. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Interesting, thank you both. Loge might refer to a little shed (1350 already), so I read, like the English shop... Boutique then seems based on O. Prov. botica, which then refer to Gr. apotheke [not farmako, as I first wrote!] ! I then find out that magasin is either based on Arabic maḵāzin, plural of maḵzan ‘storehouse, warehouse’, belonging tot the verb ḵazana ‘store'. But it got into French via the Italian magazzino ‘id.’ [before 1348], or the Provencal, indirectly attested in Marseille as medieval Lat. magazenum, a store in an Algerian coastal town’ [1228].
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
  5. bibax Senior Member

    Czech
    Czech:

    obchod, from the verb obcházeti (ob + choditi), a frequentative form of the verb obejíti (= to go round, Lat. obire, obambulare);

    Obchod means also 'business/Handel' (zahraniční/vnitřní obchod = der Außenhandel/Binnenhandel).

    prodejna (selling place), from the verb prodati (= to sell), from dáti (= to give);

    krám (colloq.), from German Kramladen;
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2012
  6. sound shift Senior Member

    Derby (central England)
    English - England
    That Arabic word (post no. 4) seems to be the source of Turkish "mağaza" (= "storehouse", "shop") too. Turkish also has "dükkân" for shop. The absence of vowel harmony in the latter suggests non-Turkish origin, and the elongated "a" may point to Arabic (not sure if there is a cognate in Arabic).
     
  7. bibax Senior Member

    Czech
    Spanish bodega, Italian bottega.

    In Czech we have a cognate: putika/putyka (= a pub).
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2012
  8. apmoy70 Senior Member

    Greek
    In Greek:

    «Κατάστημα» (ka'tastima, n.)--> lit. condition, state of affairs, metaph. establishment, a derivation of the Classical verb «καθίστημι» (kă'tʰĭstēmĭ)--> to ordain, appoint, set in order, in periphrases, to make.
    Colloquially, «μαγαζί» (maɣa'zi, n.), an Arabic loan word (maḵāzin) via Ottoman Turkish (mağaza).
    During holiday season, our women take a stroll in the «καταστήματα» (kata'stimata, pl. neuter) or the «μαγαζιά» (maɣazi'a, pl. neuter).

    Edit: According to the Portal for the Greek language, it's not via Turkish we've loaned the word «μαγαζί», but rather via the Venetian magazin.

    PS: Happy New Year.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
  9. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Thanks, ladies and gentlemen! That is quite a variety of words and origins. Quite interesting !
     
  10. sakvaka

    sakvaka Moderoitsija

    Finnish.

    The word is kauppa. It is in fact a Germanic borrowing (cf. German Kauf, Swedish köp 'purchase').

    Jos minä siivoan, niin käytkö sinä sillä välin kaupassa?
    If I clean, will you do the shopping meanwhile? (lit. 'visit the shop')
     
  11. itreius Senior Member

    Assembly
    Croatian (BCS)

    trgovina <- trg (~square, market; a word similar to it exists in North Germanic languages - torg, a loanword from Russian if I recall correctly)
    dućan <- from the Turkish word that's already been mentioned by sound shift in this thread
    prodavaonica <- prodati (to sell) <- dati (to give); the Serbian and Bosnian registers use prodavnica
     
  12. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    It is so amazing to me that this one concept (it is, isn't it) is translated in so many different ways. And it seems to refer to the kind of place (corner, booth, ...), to the action (selling, giving), ...

    What I just wondered about is: could it be a fairly recent phenomenon? In most cases, I guess, there were markets (for fresh products) and the places where craftsmen worked or stored their products (store, magasin/...).
     
  13. 涼宮

    涼宮 Senior Member

    Sbaeneg/Castellano (Venezuela)
    In Japanese you say 店 /mi'se/

    As for the origin, it is an abbreviation of 見世棚 /miseda'na/, part of it comes from the shelves 棚 /da'na/ that the customers looked. Therefore the verb to look 見る /mi'ɽu/ transformed into a noun 見せ /mi'se/. Shelves 棚 /da'na/ can be used to say shop (店) as well.
    In the Edo period (1603 - 1868), in the red-light district, the harlots would invite the clients by preparing in advance the grid pattern of a room that faced the road. From there comes 見世 and 張り見世 /haɾimi'se/ which means ''displaying prostitutes behind a grille'', from the harlots that walk the streets among junior officers the term 見世女郎 misejorou /mised͡ʒo'ɾoː/ appeared, the term means low-class prostitute who was kept in a sort of cage at the front of the establishment.
    The kanji 店 per se implies the meaning of setting up a house in one place, it seems to be used to distinguish from peddlers(行商人) and open air-markets(市の露天).

    There are more ways to say shop/store, also as suffixes.

    Hope it was interesting :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2012
  14. rusita preciosa

    rusita preciosa Modus forendi

    USA (Φιλαδέλφεια)
    Russian (Moscow)
    The Russian word came from French: магазин /magazin/

    EDIT: the old word for small specialized shops was лавка /lavka/ = bench. Similar to the origin of the word "bank".
     
  15. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    So I see some more trends:
    - place (corner, booth, ...),
    - particular objects (shelves, benches, tents [Kramladen, kraam]),
    - to the action (selling, buying, giving, storing), ...

    It might be interesting to get some more information :
    - Greek: originally a state of things simply ? Do you see a link with selling ?
    - Japanese: what are da'na precisely? The wooden boards, the racks ?
    - Turkish (and Croatian) : duccan - any idea of the origin, anyone?

    While reading about the лавка /lavka/, bench, I wondered whether we might not need to get back to that very basic person-to-person exchange system... ;-)
     
  16. sound shift Senior Member

    Derby (central England)
    English - England
    "Dokkan" means "shop" in Persian and Arabic too. Unfortunately I don't know what else (if anything) it means in those two languages. :eek:

    As to the etymology, I can't help much.:eek: All I know is the chronology of events:

    1) 7th century: Arab conquest of Persia. Many Arabic terms enter Persian.
    2) A couple of centuries later: Turkic-speaking peoples from Central Asia enter the area of Persian cultural influence situated to the north of present-day Iran. These peoples borrow many Persian terms, some of which were in turn Persian borrowings from Arabic.
    3) These Turkic-speaking peoples pass through Baghdad en route to Anatolia.
    4) 14th and 15th centuries: Ottoman Turks conquer most of the Balkans.

    Presumably the Ottomans took the word duccan/dükkân/dokkan to Croatia. But as to the origin of the word, I don't know:
    Originally Arabic, then loaned to Persian, which loaned it to Turkish :confused:
    Originally Persian, then loaned to Arabic at the time of the Arab invasion of Persia and later to the Turkic-speaking peoples when they appeared to the north of Persia :confused:
    Originally Persian, then loaned to the Turks who loaned it to Arabic while passing through Baghdad :confused:
    Originally Turkic, then loaned first to the Persians and then to the Arabs :confused: (I think this is unlikely, on account of the fact that in Turkish this word has an elongated "a", which is regarded as foreign to Turkish.)

    None of the above? :D

    Rather a mystery! :(
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
  17. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    This is quite nice: how word etymology brings up history... But I might have found the answer (my italics) at a Wikipedia site where Arabic influence on Spanish is shown:

    Could anyone now refer me to a (cultural) history of shops ? ;-)
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2012
  18. sound shift Senior Member

    Derby (central England)
    English - England
    Well done, Thomas. I was only reading about "adoquín" yesterday, but I didn't spot the connection with "dukkan".
     
  19. mataripis

    mataripis Senior Member

    In Tagalog, to shop is " Mamili(h)" meaning to select the things to buy.The origin of "Mamili(h)" is "Mamili' "(to select) from root word "pili"(select). But when buying one or few items the word "bumili" is used.In buy and sell the verb is "Mangalakal"( trading).
     
  20. 涼宮

    涼宮 Senior Member

    Sbaeneg/Castellano (Venezuela)
  21. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    I quite see the racks, thanks.

    @Mataripis: interesting ! So that implies that pili is selecting (or choosing, I guess), bumili is just buying - but is there any link (-ili)? Any idea of the origin of mangalakal [or related/ similar words]?
     
  22. mataripis

    mataripis Senior Member

    Mangalakal has old term "Bakal" meaning to buy. In Cavite, Market place is "Baraka", in Other places "Barakalan", This word "bakal" is still used in Bisaya and Bikol but in Tagalog it has form "kalakal"(merchandise/commodities). I am sure all these words(about trading) originated in "bakal". Note: the present day Tagalog has word" bakal" for "iron" ( read slowly).The market place is "Pamilihan".
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2012
  23. Perseas Senior Member

    Athen
    Griechisch
    Interesting. In my language there is the word bakaliko (μπακάλικο) meaning grocer's [shop] and also bakalis (μπακάλης) meaning grocer. My dictionary says its orgin is the arabian baqqal, and came to the Greek language via the turkish bakkal.
     
  24. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    It would be interesting indeed to find out what the origin of baqqal is, or bakkal. Groceries and iron do not seem related though... At the Arabic forum I am told it means 'vegetables' - and there is no connection with iron.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2012
  25. mataripis

    mataripis Senior Member

    The term "bakal" is an old word in ancient language in the Philippines.It evolved into many forms in Tagalog,Bisaya,Bikol,Ilokano,Panggasinan(all in Phil.Archipelago).I think it is related in word "baqqal" from Mediterrenean region. The second form "bah-kal" is new word for Iron(i forgot the older term).but during Iron Age, Iron/bakal was the most saleble item for weaponry!This mean if the trend is buying new item, it is possible that there was an era that "Bakal"(iron) became the talk of the town during iron age period.
     
  26. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    So you suggest there might be a link. Do you have any reason for believing that hypothesis ? Did the Philippines have relations with the Arabs ???
     
  27. apmoy70 Senior Member

    Greek
    Yes originally a state of things and metaphorically an establishment, a place of living and/or selling goods. Its original meaning has no connection at all with selling. We also describe (and translate) the facility -any facility- as «κατάστημα»
     
  28. mataripis

    mataripis Senior Member

    The past history tell that the inhabitants of Islands in the southeast Asia had connections with Indian Empires and had known trading events for centuries.later,Arab/jews learned the routes and did trades too with Brown race of far east Asia.
     
  29. OneStroke Senior Member

    Hong Kong, China
    Chinese - Cantonese (HK)
    In Chinese, it's 商店 (shangdian) or 店鋪 (dianpu). There are probably a lot more as vernacular Chinese is known to have lots of 'synonyms' formed with the same group of morphemes. :) I think those morphemes are just ones from classical Chinese and don't come from another language, though I don't know for sure.
     
  30. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    But would you be able to comment on the /dian/ somehow ? Does it refer to something in particular ?
     
  31. OneStroke Senior Member

    Hong Kong, China
    Chinese - Cantonese (HK)
    'Dian' just means 'shop'. The same goes for 'pu'. Morphemes of the same meaning smash together to form words in vernacular (i.e. standard) Chinese: both syllables of 'yanjing' mean 'eye' and ditto for 'pengyou' (friend), etc. I believe 'dian' can be used as a stand-alone word in standard Chinese. In Cantonese, 'pu' is certainly a word. I don't know the 'root' meaning of shang, but it's got something to do with trade and commerce - shangren = merchant, shangye = commerce, etc. There's also a dynasty by the same name (though it's probably not related as the Liang Dynasty has nothing to do with pillars, the Xia Dynasty has nothing to do with summer and the Jin Dynasty has nothing to do with gold.)
     
  32. rusita preciosa

    rusita preciosa Modus forendi

    USA (Φιλαδέλφεια)
    Russian (Moscow)
    Interesting! In Russian there is a word бакалея /bakaleya/ meaning something like "non-perisheable goods" like tea, flour, sugar, grains, spices etc... The store or the store department selling that has the same term. I bet this came from the same source (Arabic / Turkic?...).

    (Although this word is used less and less, it was very common even 15-20 years ago.)
     
  33. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    I think I checked on that and the only answer I got from the Arabic section was groceries, or no, vegetable, which are very perishable, I think (see #25), but I wonder if we are missing out on some information.

    [[I am adding this one day later] I was told at the Arabic forum that these groceries refer to dry edible goods, and so I suppose that implies that they are not perishable, or not quickly. QED ?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  34. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Could anyone explain the origin of this (Turkish) word ?
     
  35. AutumnOwl

    AutumnOwl Senior Member

    Sweden
    Swedish - Sweden, Finnish
    Swedish:
    Affär - shop, but also business
    Butik - usually a small shop
    Handelsbod - old word for shop, store (handel - trade, bod - stall)
    Marknad - market, often outdoor market

    There is a word krämare in Swedish for a person who sold small things like needles, buttons, combs, soaps and so on in markets or in small stalls.
     
  36. Gavril Senior Member

    English, USA
    Finnish has several other words for "shop" besides kauppa:

    liike (from the same root as liikkua "move"; liike can also mean "movement" or "business")
    myymälä (< myy- "sell" + verbal noun suffix -mä + location suffix -)
    puoti (< Swedish bod)
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2012
  37. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Thanks, quite interesting. However, what would the most typical word would be for such a common place (until 20 years ago) as a shop?
     
  38. Gavril Senior Member

    English, USA
    If you're talking about the Finnish word for "shop", I believe that kauppa is the most common term overall (Finns, please correct me if I'm wrong). But, there are certain kinds of shops that tend to use a different word than kauppa: for example, valokuvausliike is the normal term for "photo shop" as opposed to valokuvauskauppa.
     
  39. sakvaka

    sakvaka Moderoitsija

    :tick: Confirmed.

    Myymälä is eg. used in the word valintamyymälä ([super]market, lit. "choice ~").
     
  40. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Spanish (and Catalan): tenida - very much like store, magasin, I suppose.
     
  41. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    Hebrew:
    מכולת macolet - col = everything/all, is in it
     
  42. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    I see... Like a store then, where you store everything, I suppose...
     
  43. sound shift Senior Member

    Derby (central England)
    English - England
    :confused: Are you talking about old Spanish and old Catalan, perhaps? (I'm not claiming any knowledge of either.) Right now the usual Spanish word for "shop" is "tienda", while Catalan has "botiga".
     
  44. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    My mistake: tienda is the word, I made a mistake, sorry!
     
  45. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    Ummmm macolet is the local grocery general shop actually. The most general term for shop, i.e. where you buy stuff with no indication of what the store is aboyut we use:
    חנות
    khanut from root kh-n-y/h
     
  46. Gavril Senior Member

    English, USA
    Armenian also has խանութ (khanut) "shop". According to Wiktionary, Armenian got this word from Syriac, along with the term for "market", շուկայ (Western shuga, Eastern shuka), which is related to Hebrew shuq / Arabic suuq.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2013
  47. ahmedcowon Senior Member

    Interesting that many languages use Arabic terms:

    The general word for "shop" in Arabic is محل (mahal) which also means "place" [pl. محال (mahaal) or محلات (mahallaat)]

    small shop is دكان (dukkaan) [pl. دكاكين (dakaakeen)]

    we also have the word حانوت (haanuut) [pl. حوانيت (hawaaneet)] but it is not used at this time
     
  48. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    Hebrew also has דוכן duchan, its equal in english would be a stand, like a street shop, no building.
     
  49. rusita preciosa

    rusita preciosa Modus forendi

    USA (Φιλαδέλφεια)
    Russian (Moscow)
    Interesting that in this thread I have not seen the word similar to bazar.


    In Russian there is an outdated word базар /bazar/ - open-air market / fair / seasonal sale. The etymological dictionary says it came into Russian trough Turkic languages from Iranian.

    Does that word exist in modern Farsi, Turkish or may be borrowed into Semitic or other languages?
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2013
  50. Gavril Senior Member

    English, USA
    Mexican Spanish: changarro "small shop"

    This can refer to a small store in a building, a stall in a marketplace, a kiosk, and so on. It can also refer to a small business in general.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2013

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