Short and long imperative forms

Discussion in 'Magyar (Hungarian)' started by 123xyz, Apr 30, 2013.

  1. 123xyz

    123xyz Senior Member

    Skopje, Macedonia
    Macedonian
    To what extent are the long imperative/subjunctives forms used, i.e. under what circumstances, and what undertones do they carry in comparison to the short forms? To provide an example, what would it mean to say "menjél" instead of "menj" or "adjad" instead of "add"?
     
  2. tomtombp Senior Member

    Hungarian
    To me it gives emphasis for example when urging somebody: "adjad már!" or "adod már?", "menjél már!" ("még mindig itt vagy?")
     
  3. Olivier0 Senior Member

    Toulouse
    français - France
    I think the short form is more frequent especially in writing, and the long form maybe a bit popular/uneducated, except of course when it is the only one (egyél, igyál, vigyél, etc.)
    -- Olivier
     
  4. 123xyz

    123xyz Senior Member

    Skopje, Macedonia
    Macedonian
    There are verbs where the long form is the only one? Wiktionary provides "égy" as an alternative to "egyél", "vígy" as an alternative to "vigyél", etc...
     
  5. Olivier0 Senior Member

    Toulouse
    français - France
    The one-syllable verb roots ending in voyel+sz(+ik) are a special group of verbs: tesz vesz lesz visz hisz eszik iszik.
    The -sz- appears only at present indicative, and -gy is used instead of -j for imperative, with a long voyel at the 2nd person sg.: vesz->végy, except for hisz->higgy, and eszik and iszik which have no short form.
    Vígy is a bit archaic, like in ne vígy minket kísértésbe "lead us not into temptation" (the Lord's prayer, also archaic in English).
    I read somewhere that the long forms were originally the forms for -ik verbs, then the distinction was lost and both forms survived. Since eszik and iszik are the only -ik verbs in this group, this may be the reason why even old texts do not use *égy or in this meaning *így, which I think are a mistake in the wiktionary table for eszik and iszik.
    -- Olivier
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
  6. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Unfortunately it is (another) question that would demand a fairly long and complicated answer because there is also the difference between the forms in the subjective and the objective conjugations.

    According to my Nyelvművelő Kézikönyv (1.kötet 619.old.), it seems to be the opposite: the short forms (in subjective conjugation, 2nd person, for non -ik ending verbs e.g. menj/menjél, adj/adjál) are referred to a stronger order, meanwhile the longer forms express a milder one (or just a demand) in popular and casual speech.
    Their examples:
    Aludj már! <---> Aludjál szépen, kisfiam!
    Menj innen! <---> Menjél egy kicsit odább!

    Meanwhile in the objective conjugation (e.g. add - adjad), they make a definite distinction between short = more definite / long = milder order and they say that even in the more sophisticated written forms there is a tendency for the use of the short forms.
     
  7. Akitlosz Senior Member

    Hungary
    Hungarian
    The long forms are older. The short forms are shortening. There is no real difference in the meaning!

    If you want to talk more and/or more beautiful then use the longer forms!
    If you want to talk less and/or more forcefully then use the short forms!
     
  8. tomtombp Senior Member

    Hungarian
    I am here to disagree as I mentioned:D To me the longer forms are the ones that express stronger order.

    It's mainly the "szépen" and "the kicsit" that make the order milder in your example sentences. Removing them from the orders using the long form make the orders using the long forms much more strong than how strong the short form versions in your examples were.
    i.e. "Aludjál már!" is stronger than "Aludj már!" "Aludj már" is more of a begging than an order to me. I can imagine someone shouting "aludjál már!" but not so much "aludj már!"

    However, I would never say "adjad ide a könyvet, légyszíves" unless I wanted to sound old-fashioned/rural. The same for "odább". I'd never use it and I've never heard it. It's "odébb" or "arrébb". Even "arrább" is more frequently heard than "odább".
    I guess your book is a pre-war edition:D You'd better ditch it:D

    P.S. There are many Goggle search hits for "odább" so there's something wrong with my Hungarian? :eek:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2013
  9. tomtombp Senior Member

    Hungarian
    Ok, I see that this is in line with what your book says, so keep the book if you like it;)
     
  10. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Thank you very much, I will.:p
    I have to admit that I have found several times some examples a bit outdated in it (my copy was published in 1983!) but I trust Grétsy and Kovalovszszky. I've never managed to catch them making a mistake - apart from the fact that there are not many who did better than e.g. Grétsy for explaining how our language works.
    But then: de gustibus...:)
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2013
  11. Akitlosz Senior Member

    Hungary
    Hungarian
    I agree with Zsanna, and I disagree with tomtombp.
     
  12. tomtombp Senior Member

    Hungarian
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013
  13. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Tom, I can't open your link above.
     
  14. Olivier0 Senior Member

    Toulouse
    français - France
    I can open it and here is the only relevant part:
    -- Olivier
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2013
  15. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Thanks, Olivier.:)
    Now the only thing to find out is what this "E/2 alak" is...
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2013
  16. Olivier0 Senior Member

    Toulouse
    français - France
    Egyes szám 2. személy = second-person singular, so they are saying that the final -d in mondd or in várd is not a special imperative mark with personal mark "zero" (no mark), but the usual -d personal mark with the -j imperative mark dropped when shortening the full form mondjad, várjad.
    -- Olivier
     
  17. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Thank you again!
    I hope foreign learners don't think it is a "proper term"... Or is it? (In my time, it was 1.sz. 2.szem.)
    But we are getting really off topic. (The trouble is that already the link does not seem to be too much to the point.)
     
  18. franknagy

    franknagy Senior Member

    A book for foreigners translated the "Felszólító mód" to "Imperative and Subjunctive Mood".
    If it expresses Subjunctive then the longer form is used. If it expresses Imperative the the shorter one.

    Hagyd békén az öcsémet! = Leave my brother alone.
    Azt mondta neked, hogy hagyjad békén az öccsé? = Did she told you that you left her brother alone?
     
  19. gorilla Junior Member

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    When I was in primary school around 1997, our teacher used E/1., T/2. etc. (we also jokingly pronounced it as "eper" and "teper")
     
  20. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Frank, I think the second example is the same imperative... Maybe something like: Azt akarom, hogy hagyd/hagyjad békén az öcsémet (= I want you to leave my brother alone) would be better? Only even in this case both forms can be used.

    Gorilla, it certainly has the advantage to be shorter.:) (Was it then "eperegy" and "teperkettő"?:eek:)
     
  21. tomtombp Senior Member

    Hungarian
    Sorry, I was abroad and just got back. It seems that the link I inserted above can't be opened from Hungary.
    Edit: After I sent this post I tried the link again and it opened:confused: Sorry.
     

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