Since the people of all nations are seeking peace,

Discussion in 'Lingua Latina (Latin)' started by William Stein, Sep 4, 2013.

  1. William Stein Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    American English
    The full sentence (which deserves the Nobel Prize for naivety!) is "Since the people of all nations are seeking peace, all leaders must conquer the passion for power".

    I'm not sure what the best translation of "people" is here but, assuming it's "populus" in the singular I came up with this:

    "Populo omnium gentium pacem quaerendo, cupiditas potestates omnibus ducis superanda est"

    Is that (grammatically) correct?
     
  2. Scholiast

    Scholiast Senior Member

    Reading, UK
    English - UK
    saluete omnes!

    The grammar is not wholly wrong, and for the general sentiment the gerundive is splendid. But there are some possible refinements.

    gens is in this sense better than populus, for what in modern English we would term a "people". And cupiditas is a little clumsy.

    Try then this (of course other contributors to the Forum may come up with better proposals):

    quaerentibus pacem gentibus, dominandi cupido vincenda.

    Agreed, 'tis a rather naive thing in English, but such aphorisms always sound better, and more economical, in Latin.

    Σ
     
  3. William Stein Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    American English
    Salue Scholiaste!

    Cafeina bibita, verba tua mihi comprehenda sunt.

    I wasn't very happy with "populo". I was toying with several possibilities but wasn't too crazy about any of them:
    "hominibus omnium gentium pacem quaerendis"
    "omnibus omnium civitatum ...
    I was also thinking about "natio", which I once heard originally meant "people". The problem is that I don't have a really good dictionary to explain all the nuances to me.
    I guess you are capitalizing on the broad semantic field of gens (both "people" and "nation") to condense "people of all countries" into one word, right?

    Unfortunately, the last part is a bit too pithy for me to follow. Is "cupido" is the ablative of "cupidus" (greedy)? 'Dominandi" looks like it should mean "those to be dominated", but that doesn't make much sense: Those dominated by greed are to be defeated? "
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  4. Scholiast

    Scholiast Senior Member

    Reading, UK
    English - UK
    Sorry for the tardy reply - I am usually notified by WRF of responses, but curiously on this occasion I heard nothing.

    Now to answer your queries:

    1. gens is right for "peoples"/"nations". Certainly not populus;
    2. cupido is nominative, therefore subject of the main idea, and dominandi a gerund - "Desire for ["of"] domination"...

    I hope this helps.

    Σ
     
  5. William Stein Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    American English
    Sorry to be so thick but I'm still not quite sure:

    I thought "quaerentibus pacem gentibus" was in the ablative as an independent clause, but now I think it might be in the dative as in "hostes mihi vicendi":

    The desire for domination must be overcome by people desirous of peace???
     
  6. dubitans Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria
    German - Austria
    I think petere is better than quaerere.
    Hence, as AcI, petentibus pacem omnibus gentibus
    Then I wouldn't omit all leaders.
    Hence, as main clause, dominandi cupido vincenda omnibus ducibus
    Whole sentence:
    petentibus pacem omnibus gentibus dominandi cupido vincenda omnibus ducibus
    When it comes to word order though, I suggest the following two-liner:

    omnibus gentibus pacem petentibus
    omnibus ducibus dominandi cupido vincenda

    One might, however, wish to avoid that multitude of buses.
    So why not
    omnibus gentibus pacem petentibus
    omnes duces dominandi cupidinem vincant


    Or even without AcI:
    omnes duces dominandi cupidinem vincant
    quia omnes gentes pacem petent


    And for the alliterates:
    populis pacem petentibus
    pereat
    potestatis peradoratio principum
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
  7. William Stein Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    American English
    Thanks for the excellent and very funny answer, Dubitans. My only remaining doubt concerns "vicenda". I don't see any feminine antecedent so I assume it is in the neuter plural (vicenda = things to be conquered?), but that doesn't make sense to me either because "dominandi cupido" (desire for domination) is in the masculine singular, right? Is this the idea: omnibus ducibus dominandi cupido vincenda = desire of domination is something to be conquered?
     
  8. dubitans Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria
    German - Austria
    cupido is as feminine as Miss Monroe singing Happy Birthday, Mr President.
     
  9. William Stein Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    American English
    I don't mean to burst your bubble but Marylin sang that before (s)he got the sex change operation (just kidding).
    It's all clear to me now thanks. The only definition of "cupido" I could find online was the son of Venus. I really need a good Latin dictionary (at least an online version).
     
  10. dubitans Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria
    German - Austria
  11. William Stein Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    American English
    Wow, that's the world's greatest dictionary, thanks.
    I confess I didn't understand "cupidinem". I've only been studying Latin for about 6 weeks and I can't remember seeing any words that follow that pattern in my vast history of Latin studies.
     
  12. dubitans Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria
    German - Austria
    Omnes!
    Mea maxima culpa!
    In #6 I called an AcI what in fact is an ablativus absolutus.
    IVPITER, have mercy on me!
     

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