Slovak: bowl

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by monalisa!, Apr 5, 2013.

  1. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    This word can be very tricky:
    take a soup bowl, it is usually translated with: misa, miska
    but misa is a soup plate, and misa na polievku is a tureen:
    https://www.google.it/search?q="bow...16,d.bGE&fp=fdd4a07668dc25ce&biw=1241&bih=593
    and miska can be almost anything:
    https://www.google.it/search?q="bow...ak-jtf.sk%2Fproducts%2Fprodukt-134%2F;200;200

    Is there a specific word or we must explain " guľatá hĺboká miska bez ucha a príkrivky na polievku"?
    the same applies to tea/ milk/ coffee bowl,

    And what is the bowl of a spoon?
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  2. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
     
  3. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
  4. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    And where did you read that I typed that a "bowl" means "tanier" in Slovak? :)
    The same goes for "miska". ;)
    No, your description was fine except the mistakes I corrected. I was just answering your question, i.e. there is a specific word for it so we don`t need to describe it.

    monalisa!: "Podaj mi prosím Ťa tamtú misku." ("Pass me that bowl, please.")
    morior_invictus: "Misku? Akú misku?" ("Bowl? What bowl?")
    monalisa!: "Tamtú guľatú hĺbokú vec [t.j. misku] bez ucha a pokrievky, ktorá sa používa na polievku." ("That deep round thing without handles and lid used to serve soup.")
    morior_invictus: "Jaj, jasné. Nech sa páči." ("Oh, yes, of course. Here you go.")
     
  5. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
  6. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    cuenco (Spain Spanish word for bowl) Source: ikea.com/es;
    tazón (Mexican Spanish word for bowl) Source: vencort.mx;
    scodella (Italian word for bowl) Source: google.it
    miska (na polievku / cereálie apod.) (Slovak word for bowl) Source: moderne-doplnky.sk
    miska (na polievku / cereálie apod.) (Slovak word for bowl) Source : borglass.sk
    miska (na polievku / cereálie apod.) (Slovak word for bowl) Source : gastrozone.sk

    Whatever the bowl shape, it is still called "miska" in Slovak. ;)
     
  7. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  8. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    That thing on your image looks like some modern type of sacrificial vessel. :rolleyes: Some designers should quit their jobs as soon as possible or quit taking their crazy meds when designing. What is the purpose of the bowl displayed on your image? Watering flowers?
    You`ve mentioned above that if we add a handle to "scodella" we will get "scodella con manico". Doesn`t it just mean a "bowl with handles"? Then, the name of that container is still a "bowl" that has handles added to it. Or am I wrong? :confused: Is that container called "scodella con manico"? We also may call it "miska s rúčkou" but it`s still just a "miska".

    Just a side note, we wouldn`t call that kind of handle a "ucho". We would call it "rúčka". "Ucho" refers to a handle that is attached on both sides and looks like a human ear.
     
  9. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    What I am trying to get across is that bowl is a scodella but not a miska as miska can be anything
    bowl and scodella is just a
    guľatá hlboká miska bez ucha, ručky a pokrievky, :confused: či nie?
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  10. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    :)
    I can`t see what is hard to understand here. The same way a bowl is used in English, the same way a "miska" is used in Slovak, i.e. "a hemispherical vessel, wider than it is deep, used for holding food or fluids." Miska in Slovakia usually has no handles (but this is not a must) and no cover / lid (I`d say that this is a must) and may have various shapes. If you want to describe it, you may say that "miska" is... "hlboká guľatá nádoba* bez ucha / rúčky a pokrievky".

    * we can`t use "miska" here, because we are describing it, so "miska is miska" would sound pretty strange, však?
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  11. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    I think I found a shorter translation, good for: milk/ tea/ coffee/ sugar/ soup etc. .. bowl: pologuľatá miska ...[na mlieko..../polievku], čo vy na to?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2013
  12. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    It`s still a description of a bowl shape, monalisa. It would be a translation of a "half-rounded bowl".

    a bowl = miska
    a half-rounded / rounded / angled etc. ... bowl = pologuľatá / guľatá / hranatá atď. ... miska

    It`s an adjective + a noun, and a bowl (miska) is a noun, capisce? ;)
     
  13. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2013
  14. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    Yes, the adjective "pologuľatá" is used to limit / qualify / specify the noun "bowl". :rolleyes:
    If you assume that the set of "miska" includes "bowl", inter alia, then it will be a wrong assumption. "Miska" is just a bowl. It is not a general term for bowls and other vessels. ¿Me explico? :eek:
    So it`s not a hyperonym, like, for instance, a plant is. Nádoba is a hyperonym that includes miska, among other things.

    How would you translate the following sentences to Slovak?:
    "I ate soup from melamine bowls, so I`m afraid of getting kidney stones."
    "I bought a white porcelain bowl in China."
    "What a nice bowl you got!"


    I hope that you`ll understand it after this. Bowl means "misa" / "miska" (small bowl) and other similar things according to the context (like it is in English).
     
  15. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    The qualifier you chose do not refer to shape, morior, a porcelain miska is a porcelain bowl but a miska can be any shape!

    Miska is vessel that can be square or spheric with handle etc, bowl is a vessel that can be only spheric and no handle etc.
    So it is a hyperonym as to the shape, to get to bowl we must use a qualifier of the shape that fits the purpose.

    If you do not see it, I give up, I do not want to polemize, you are so king and obliging!!:)
     
  16. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    My examples were not about the qualifiers but about the usage of a bowl in those sentences and how would you translate it.
    The same applies for a bowl, monalisa, so...
    ...:eek:. Who told you that?
    It`s the same as if you said that "stôl" is a hyperonym as to the shape and to reach the meaning of a "table" (that surely can be only square :rolleyes:) we must use a qualifier of the shape that fits the purpose.
    So, I`m sorry, I don`t see it. :) I`m admitting this weakness of mine. ;) I hope you will get my point someday.
     
  17. bibax Senior Member

    Czech
    A bowl is a round hollow vessel used for holding and mixing liquids and food.

    However, miska is also mostly round (often spherical). Other shapes are not too convenient for mixing food and cannot be made by the potter's wheel.

    Squared miskas are used for salads and for baking. I think that they did not exist in the past.

    Interestingly the Panslavic noun misa came from Latin mensa. I thought it was from the verb měsiti (to mix, miscere, mischen).
     
  18. vianie Senior Member

    Slovak
    An useful suggestion - please never confuse yourself miska with misska, the later one being heard quite frequently these times.
     
  19. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    I hope you are not pulling my leg, :confused:, morior, the caption says that that is a square bowl, an a square bowl it's sure igoing to be square,
    anyway, let's forget about the qualifiers, does it sound OK:bowl = [poľogulatá] miska na mlieko, kávu, čaj, cukor, šalát, polievku, kvety, vahy,?
    na víno, probably čaša is more modern? and
    na bowling, it must be guľa, of course.

    @ bibax, thanks for the etymology, it explains the strange paradox that a misa (tanier) is smaller than a small misa (miska).
    "mensa"
    was a flat round piece of stale bread that was used by the Romans to hold their food (=>Spanish mesa).
    @vianie, are you able to distinguish the two words in speech?

    P.S. bytheway, is there any difference between misa na polievku a polievkova misa?, as in the google search misa na polievku was a tureen
    whilst KSSJ says that polievkova misa is a plytšia :confused:nadoba: http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=miska&...n&d=locutio&d=pskcs&d=psken&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2013
  20. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    I beg to differ with bibax on one thing: bowl is a concave usually nearly hemispherical (not spherical) vessel.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2013
  21. vianie Senior Member

    Slovak
    No, they are not discernible without the context. In the case when somebody (me?) would like to counterpoint the quantity difference of s in the word misska, the one would say ~ miska. We might find a lot of these glottal half-stops in colloquial Slovak and in words like mäkký [meʔkí] or ranný [raní]. I call them half-stops because there is more important to respect the steady balance of the particular syllables in Slovak, similarly like in Spanish and unlike in Italian. So thatway somehow.
     
  22. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    I do not think it's a glottal stop, vianie, I never heard it so I can not be sure, but I think you don't distinguish between double consonants, and therefore do not recognise them.
    When I was in Slovakia, I noticed that people say ossem and do not realize that, but to me osem and ossem are two separate phonemes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2013
  23. vianie Senior Member

    Slovak
    It is not a real glottal stop. I used the word as a crutch because I think it is not that far from it. I perceive the sound of double consonants like a fusion of the glottal stop and the double consonants as themselves. You are right that we do not have double consonants, so we can afford to pronounce single consonants like we just want to. Due to their number, consonants play high importance in every Slavic language and thus are the means of expression.
     
  24. sesperxes

    sesperxes Senior Member

    Burgos (Spain)
    Spanish-Spain
    Beware of dictionaries and translations on-line: in Spain both "tazón" and "cuenco" are bowl (without handle), the only difference is that in shops and houses you have "tazones" (pl. of tazón) (for soup, milk, hot chocolate, typical "un tazón de leche caliente" - a bowl of warm milk) and in museums and gift-shops you have "cuencos" (Tibetan, Roman, Greek bowls...).

    Our friends of Ikea (besides feeding us with horse and reindeer meat instead of veal), make their trasnlations with political refugees who live in Sweden, mainly from Chile and Central America, and the translations into Spanish that they use here in Spain are a bit...strange.
     
  25. bibax Senior Member

    Czech
    Your definition is from the Merriam-Webster.com, another definition (from a printed Longman-Merriam-Webster):

    bowl = 1 any of various round hollow vessels used for holding and mixing ...
    hollow = .... 1b curved inward, concave, 2 ...
    spherical = 1 having the form of (a segment of) a sphere, 2 ...

    So the common bowls are round, the adjective hollow also means concave (dutý/konkávny), and the spherical lenses (used in the dioptric glasses) are not necessarily entire glass spheres.

    In Czech and Slovak miska can be also cylindrical. A prominent example: Petriho miska (Petri dish/plate). Other Slavic languages do not use the noun miska in this case (чашка Петри, szalka Petriego, ...).
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2013
  26. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    Do you see the difference between your posts? I opposed you only because of the fact that in your first post, you eliminated the possibility that a bowl could also be of a shape that is not round. And this is what I was trying to explain to monalisa in my X posts.
     
  27. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    Hi morior, I understand where you went wrong: if you google bowl of course you get also square bowl.

    A bow lhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowl is a round vessel, but if you like you may produce a squareor a cylindrical bowl bowl and you must qualify it by square it will cease to be a usual, common bowl, as any dictionary will confirm
    The Spanish link will give you cuenco, and probably you went wrong there, but gives you the correct Italian : ciotola, scodella is an old-fashioned word.
    A sugar bowl https://www.wolfandbadger.com/willow-sugar-bowl/ is different from a cukornicka http://www.tescoma.sk/katalog/stolo...nie/classic/654042-cukornicka-250-ml-classic/
    but also this is probably a hyperonym :)
     
  28. bibax Senior Member

    Czech
    There is a similar situation with the dinner plates. When I was a little child I learned that the plates were round as all plates without any exception were round in those times. A square dinner plate was simply a nonsense. Now mad designers design plates of all shapes. Certainly we'll see even square beer mugs in the future.
     
  29. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    The same applies to "miska", monalisa. Normally, it`s "round" but as bibax mentioned above, sometimes crazy designers forget to take their meds and design awful preternatural things which they sell to the retailers and since the retailers can`t find an appropriate word for it, they name it miska, váza, auto etc.. Do you realize that "¿estamos caminando en círculos?"
    This is the same thing as with miska. You picked the picture that suited you best and now you`re testing the validity of my proposition. :)
    So I`ve found, for instance, this picture for a sugar bowl and this picture for "cukornička".;) Incidentally, the picture of "cukornička" you found is not commonly used as far as I know (maybe in some restaurants if you want to save space on the table). That shape is used mainly as to "soľnička" and "korenička". So here are the Google results for "sugar bowl" and "cukornička" with no filtering. I think your second occupation is advocatus diaboli. :) Two paychecks at once? That`s not bad.
     
  30. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    All right morior, my second occupation is a degree in Linguistics and a professional translator. I do not want to reciprocate on that.:eek: : You seem to reject the basic idea of hyperonym: click the two links you offered, in the first page of cukornička you may easily count some 60 instances of vessels that are cylinders with holes or something; in the first page of sugar bowl I couldn't find a single one like that. The simple conclusion is that if I use the Slovak term you will never be sure what I really mean. That is a small but, linguistically, immense difference.
    your link sugar bowl doesn' say it's a" sugar bowl" but
    http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_283/1214498251UK9Hxm.jpg., so I missed your point:
    if I say sugar bowl to an Englishman he will be 100% sure what I am talking about. That is the difference.
    I suppose this settles the dispute http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2613919
    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2613903
    https://www.google.it/search?hl=it&...cp.r_qf.&fp=3cc58ac0390a9d6d&biw=1241&bih=593
    if you do not see or accept that, after 30 posts, well, I can't help it.

    P.S wine bowl is chladiaca nádoba/ or a bowl-ish glass, btw a google search for čaša gives also regular wine glasses
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2013
  31. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    The same in Italian, tazzone is a milk bowl , but in Italian it is a hyperonym as it can be also abigtazza, with an ucho, so you must add the qualifier
    tazzone per latte/cappuccino.

    BTW , I tried to fix the cuenco link in wiki and substitute it with tazón, and link it to tazzone, but couldn't. Are you able to do it?
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2013
  32. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    Not exactly. When I say cukornička, everybody will know that I mean a relatively small "vessel" used to hold the sugar, be it of whatever form. When I say sugar bowl in English, I mean a subset both of bowls and of cukornička's, i.e. not a particular one, but excluding all the "non-bowlish" cukornička's. Here we have simply two different approaches, so a 100% equivalence is not possible without some explanation. But strictly speaking, this is true for almost all the words (even such a "simple" word like house does not exactly or in all contexts correspond to dom and vice versa …)

    sugar bowl - cukornička guľatého tvaru
    cukornička - sugar bowl or sugar box or sugar basin or sugar I-don't-know-what :)....
     
  33. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    That is exactly what I said it is a set (hyperonym) including 2 subsets: sugar bowl and sugar dispenser
    if you use the English term you have a 100% certainty, if you use the Slovak 50%, but I suspect that more than 50% of Slovaks will think of a dispenser
     
  34. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    As a linguist you should know that languages differ from each other in vocabulary, grammar, sound etc. Vocabulary of English language contains more than 1 million words (including dialectal, archaic words, neologisms etc.) and that of Slovak only more than 100 thousand words (including regional, archaic words, neologisms etc.). What does this mean? It means that one word in Slovak should cover the meanings of 10 English words. This is just for illustration! It`s quite exaggerated. So don`t be surprised if I translate "sugar bowl" and "sugar dispenser" to "cukornička". You should bear this in mind in your future posts.
    Well, I will. ;) You wouldn`t ask me for a sugar bowl in Slovak restaurant and in most cases for a sugar dispenser at one`s home. If so, then no one would care whether the sugar is in a dispenser, bowl, plate etc. since you want the sugar and not the vessel that holds it. :rolleyes: If someone told me that they bought a "cukornička" I would assume that they bought a sugar bowl as I wouldn`t see the reason why they would buy a sugar dispenser. If so, they would surely specify it that it`s not a classic "domáca cukornička". Cultural differences are another thing you should bear in mind in your future posts. What appears strange to you may appear quite normal to me and vice versa.
    sugar bowl (normally, sugar dispenser)
    So do I. There are a lot of things that should help you understand some things. There is nothing surprising for me (except Copyright`s flower bowl :eek:). Please also remember that I`m more familiar with American English so your "washing-up bowl" is for me a "basin" and if I didn`t see that Google image I wouldn`t know what you were talking about. In Slovak, it is called "lavór".
    As far as I know, wine bowl was used for mixing water and wine together in ancient times and for drinking this mixture (ergo I typed you the names of vessels used for drinking wine in Slovakia. I don`t know how I would call that ancient wine bowl - probably a "misa na víno"). "Chladič vína" is called "wine bucket" in English. And "čaša" / "kalich" is a goblet in Slovak and "pohár" is a glass in Slovak.
    You surely know what hyperonym is (a semantic relationship between a general and a more specific term), so "nádoba" is a general lexeme (hyperonym) and "miska", "misa", "kôš" etc. are more specific lexemes (hyponyms) or "nádoba na pitie" is a hyperonym and pohár, čaša, kalich, džbán etc. are hyponyms.
     
  35. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    would just : miska na cukor be adequate?
    and if you just heard/ read: žena kúpila cukorničku, what would you think ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2013
  36. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    Maybe yes, perhaps when it is not covered. But it's a bit unusual to me.

    Whichever, not automatically spargizucchero.
     
  37. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    google search gives all sorts !
    And what do you understand by miska na polievku, polievkova miska
    a vessel for one or a serving vessel?
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2013
  38. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    For me miska is for one and misa is a serving vessel.
    (misa can be coverd or not, with or without handle, while miska is typically not covered and has no handle)
     
  39. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
  40. bibax Senior Member

    Czech
    I should say "kratér (na víno)".
     
  41. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    Both.

    miska na polievku - both (for one / for serving)
    misa na polievku - (mostly) for serving
    polievková miska - (mostly) for serving
    polievková misa - (mostly) for serving

    misa na servírovanie polievky - a bowl for serving soup - terina
     
  42. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
  43. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    Hi Azori, :) , we missed you,

    the situation is really complicated, according to google,(low price suggests : misa for one) http://www.gastrozone.sk/polievkova...ml?PHPSESSID=0c1b1bfaceceed5191bb2f0bbe4e81c3
    that's why your opinion is important
    just to recap:

    soup bowl => okrúhla/ poľoguatá polievková miska
    serving bowl => polievková misa, terina
    sugar bowl => miska na cukor, ohrúhla cukornička
    wine bowl => kratér (hist.); chladič na víno,
    champagne/ wine bowl => ballon pohár (correct? https://www.google.it/search?q="mis...ar-illemtan-avagy-mibol-mit-igyunk%2F;210;150 wine bowl http://atozpartyrentals.biz/rentals/glassware-rentals/)
    flower bowl => okrúhla miska na kvety ( it seems that kvetinová miska and miska na kvety are different, right?)

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  44. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    It looks more like something one would use for serving, imo.
    Frankly, I don't quite get why you want to use the words "okrúhla" and "pologuľatá" here.

    ?

    We normally don't say things like that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  45. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    As I said, 1,39 euro seem too little for a serving bowl, and moreover, terina has , usually, a lid

    in order to be precise one needs a qualifier, http://www.gastrozone.sk/miska-guat...ml?PHPSESSID=0c1b1bfaceceed5191bb2f0bbe4e81c3
    which do you recommend:
    "okrúhla" "pologuľatá or guľatá"?
    Thanks a lot, Azori
     
  46. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    None of these.
     
  47. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    Thanks Azori, thanks everybody!:)
     

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