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Slovak: question tag

Discussion in 'Other Slavic Languages' started by monalisa!, Mar 27, 2013.

  1. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    What do you call a tag question: "dodatočná otázka"?
     
  2. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    Disjunktívna otázka.
     
  3. vianie Senior Member

    Slovak
    Hi monalisa! "disjunktívna otázka" is fine when talking about the English thing. For the needs of Slovak grammar I would name it "vylučovacia otázka". Just if you want to make it simpler for Slovaks.
     
  4. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
  5. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

  6. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    Yes, that is what Lingea has, but I checked with Kacala, and it does not make sense in Slovak (at least to me)
    Yes Google gave me 6 hits, but I thought they are copied from the wrong transaltion,

    Vianie seems to have the correct translation, lebo the actual language translation gives us a vylučovacia spojka "sùhlasiš, či nie?"
    You agree, don't you?
     
  7. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    No, I don`t. :) Do you think that "disjunktívna" otázka and "vylučovacia" otázka are the same thing, monalisa? No, they aren`t.
    There are two types of "disjunktívna otázka": a) exkluzívna (vylučovacia) disjunktívna otázka = the answer is only one statement (either positive or negative). b) inkluzívna (nevylučovacia) otázka = the answer is either "positive" or "negative" or both are used in the answer.
    Therefore I am of the opinion that:
    ...is a very good translation of a "tag question". Other possible translations are (krátka) prídavná otázka, koncová otázka, zisťovacia otázka.

    * In Slovak, the correct translation of tag questions is "však" / "všakže" apod.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2013
  8. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    No, I do not, that's why I opted for Vianies's.
    disjunktívna" otázka, Kacala says is rozlučovacia (can you give me an example of such a spojka?)
    As to the correct translation , as usual, I took my example from SNK! (now you are going to hate it!)
    As to však, once again, Kacala says it means only "is it true?", and IMHO does not translate the alternative
    You agree, morior, [or] do you not?/ don't you?
     
  9. Azori

    Azori Senior Member

    From http://korpus.juls.savba.sk/:
    What does this say? :eek:
     
  10. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    Vyhlásili ich Spojené národy , či nie ? “ „ Áno , asi hej . ‘ Of course , sir . They were declared by the UN , were n't they ?

    to môže byť jedine černoška , či nie ? " Zamestnankyňa Avisu , ktorá jej to auto požičala , vraví , že to bola černoška , " povie Sally , akoby mu čítala myšlienky . But a name like Washington ? Has to be black , does n't it ?

    Ale tuším si ich všetky zjedla , či nie ? " " Kedy pôjdeme domov , ocko ? " " Not as good as waffles . " " But I see you ate them all , did n't you ?

    There are thousands of examples in SNK, and , as they say, usage makes language.
    But the point is that I did not find in Kacala, any mention of disjunktivny: disjunctia, as you know, is a logics concept http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_disjunction, as morior specified,
    and IMHO he proved my case, as both sentences cannot be true. (či, here means aut)
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2013
  11. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
    * I`m afraid that I don`t. :)
    As you can see from the quoted text, Kačala is wrong and "však" / "všakže" apod. is the correct translation of every tag question. Your "či nie" is grammatically incorrect and as far as I know, it is not currently used (or maybe in some regions). These versions of tag questions are used today:
    "Pôjdeš so mnou von, či?" / "Nepôjdeš so mnou von, či?" (frequently used but grammatically incorrect :thumbsdown: and I cringe every time I hear it)
    "Pôjdeš so mnou von, že?" / "Že pôjdeš so mnou von?" / "Nepôjdeš so mnou von, že?" (frequently used but grammatically incorrect :thumbsdown:)
    "Pôjdeš so mnou von, však?" / "Nepôjdeš so mnou von, však?" (not frequently used but grammatically correct :thumbsup:)

    Now, let`s take a look at disjunctions. I will try to explain to you why Azori is right, so apart from the fact that "logical disjunction" needs an obvious "or" operator (i.e. coordinating conjunction "alebo"), these are the examples of disjunctive / tag questions:
    "Quit talking, will you?" (polite request) - both "statements" are either true (1) or false (0), so actually, the answer would be either 00 or 11, i.e. an inclusive disjunction (inkluzívna disjunktívna otázka).
    "Oh, you won`t, won`t you?" (irony) - both "statements" are either true (1) or false (0), so actually, the answer would be an inclusive disjunction.
    "You ain`t gon be actin` like that, right?" (barbarian English :) + dialectal form of a tag) - we have 0 and 1 in this tag question and regarding the intonation we are expecting either 0 or 1, so the answer would actually be an exclusive disjunction (i.e. exkluzívna / vylučovacia disjunktívna otázka).
    "Your real name isn`t monalisa!, is it?" (an intonation would tell you if I already know the answer or I`m not sure if that statement is correct) - in this sentence, we have 0 and 1 and regarding the intonation we are expecting either positive or negative answer - exkluzívna disjunktívna otázka.
    "You have a car, don`t you (AmE) / haven`t you (BrE)?" - the same as above.
    So, "exkluzívne" + "inkluzívne" otázky = disjunktívne otázky.

    For further information, see also:
    disjunctive question [isn’t he/she?]
    "disjunctive question " questions again

    Oh, and before I forget, you should also bear in mind this:
    So, in this case, I`m that "kodifikačná príručka".:)
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2013
  12. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    I did not understand what you mean, and if you are joking:
    http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=disjun...n&d=locutio&d=pskcs&d=psken&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

    I was asking for an example of ""rozlučovaciu spojku", did you mean it does not exist?
    As to the main issue, I think you made a mixture of different, incompatible items, in this case:
    "Quit talking, will you?", the tag question means just "please" and it cannot be labelled as exclusive, nor disjunctive., it's just a tag
    that's why I offered "dodatočná" in the first place

    AS to who is wrong, there can be no higher authority than Logics and Linguistics.
    I beg to differ from you and Azori.
    Disjunctive means just disjunctive: VEL is inclusive disjunction and AUT is not inclusive/ exclusive (vyluovacia) disjunction. Natural languages use indifferently or (alebo/ či) for both. That's that!
    I hope you can see my point: I am just repeating what you stated in post 7.:confused:

    P.S.: I hope you'll no cringe:)
    http://korpus.sk:8091/manatee.ks/do_query?query=či+nie&in_corpus=0
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
  13. morior_invictus

    morior_invictus Senior Member

    Slovak
     
  14. monalisa! Senior Member

    Italia
    spanish
    1) that we really do our best to give you the correct answer, we try to consider every aspect of the issue you ask about and if you feel
    2) that your point of view is better

    1) I do appreciate that morior, and

    2)as I've seen you have a scholarly mind, I try to reciprocate to the best of my abilities. But please note that I did not give you my opinion, but quoted KSSJ, SNK and wikipedia. If you are interested (and only if) I'll give you further explanations.
    Thank you, morior and Azori
    ;)

    P.S. AUT is not inclusive/ exclusive, they are just synonyms like yours: inkluzívna (nevylučovacia)
     

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