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  1. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    The word somaro in Italian means "donkey" and according to this dictionary it comes from the Latin sagmarius (< Greek ságma). Interestingly, the Hungarian equivalent of this word is szamár, supposedly an old loanword from some Northern Italian regional language/dialect.

    My questions are about the history of this word: Was it of "common" use in Latin? Is it documented in classical Latin texts? In which Romance (including regional) languages does this word exist/survive?

    Thanks in advance
     
  2. ancalimon Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    "Semer" in Turkish means "saddle". Official Turkish dictionary says that it's from Rum language. Another very similar word "Kemer" meaning "belt" is listed as a Persian word.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2014
  3. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    The Rum language is Latin?
     
  4. Perseas Senior Member

    Athen
    Griechisch
    σαμάρι /sa'mari/ in Greek means saddle.
    σαμάρι < σαμάριον < σαγμάριον < σάγμα

    The French sommier is related to it, according Babiniotis' dictionary.
    sommier < L. sagmariu(m) < sagma < Gr. σάγμα
     
  5. ancalimon Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    The Rum language is neither Greek nor Latin but I guess a language that was heavily influenced by both. It's what the language that was spoken in Anatolia was called, around the times Muslim Turks were first living in Anatolia. I guess it was an amalgam of Greek, Armenian, Arabic, Turkic, Persian and probably also Latin.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  6. Perseas Senior Member

    Athen
    Griechisch
    Does this dictionary distinguish the "Rum" language from "Greek"?
     
  7. ancalimon Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    I don't think it does. I guess any word that's related with Greek one way or another are seen as "entered to Turkish from Rum language".

    People living in Anatolia were called Rum but people living in Greece were called Yunan. So I think Rum language strictly is the language of Eastern Roman Empire. I guess it was somewhat similar to what "Ottoman language" was; a language that is heavily influenced by numerous other languages.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2014
  8. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    Are you sure "Rum" isn't an abbreviation for Rumanian (Romanian)?
     
  9. ancalimon Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    No it is not.

    Rum was the word used by Muslim people for the people living in Anatolia.

    For the word "semer" meaning "saddle", my guess is that its origins should be discussed with Etruscan in mind since their first known homeland is Anatolia.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2014
  10. Angelo di fuoco Senior Member

    Germany
    Russian & German (GER) bilingual
    http://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/somaro/ - some nuances on the usages. "Asino" is the neutral word for "donkey", a "somaro" is rather stupid, wheras a "ciuco" is rather cute.
    In some dialects of Catalan, there's "somer" (the final r usually isn't pronounced, the unstressed vowel "o" is pronounced like "u" in Eastern Catalan dialects) as synonim of "ase", which is the Standard Catalan word for "donkey". I think I came across the word in "El mar" by the Majorcan writer Blai Bonet.

    Besides, etimo.it often gives cognates from other Romance languages, but so far I haven't discovered Catalan among them.
    The article from etimo.it you cite gives cognates from Provençal (which could stand for Occitan) and French: saumiers, saumiera and sommier, respectively.
    I'm not an expert in regional Romance languages of Italy so I cannot tell for sure, but I'm quite sure "somaro" has no cognates in either Spanish or Portuguese.
     
  11. Angelo di fuoco Senior Member

    Germany
    Russian & German (GER) bilingual
    I think one just should bear in mind that the meaning of words may shift to similar or related meanings, sometimes even to opposite (French "tuer" means "to kill", but originally it meant "to protect").
     
  12. ancalimon Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    Yes. It's possible that both words are related.
     
  13. killerbee256 Senior Member

    American English
  14. Quiviscumque

    Quiviscumque Moderator

    Ciudad del paraíso
    Spanish-Spain
  15. Perseas Senior Member

    Athen
    Griechisch
    Also, this one. Especially the first bullet :
    Rûm: ethnocultural minorities such as the various formerly Koine-Greek-speaking Christian diasporas and Greeks living in the Middle East and their descendants ...
     
  16. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    It is quite clear the in the context of Turkish etymology the tern "Rum language" refers to the vernacular language of the Rum empire in contrast to Persian the language of literature an administration. There is no point in looking for other possible meanings.
     
  17. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    Which seems to be a form of Turkish rather than Greek.
     
  18. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    Whatever be the exact meaning of "Rum langage" the following
    suggest that the Turkish semer is etymologically related to the Italian somaro and finally originates from Greek.
     
  19. ancalimon Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    So does any language has some cognates of this word? I wonder whether it's related with the animal or some of its characteristics or something that shares the same characteristics with a saddle.
     
  20. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    According to both the Italian and Hungarian etymology diccionaries I have consulted, sagmarius was used in the sense of an animal carrying some kind of pack/burden on it's back (equipped with saddle, I suppose). Typically it was a donkey (at least in Italy and for consequence also in Hungary), but I understand that not necessarily. Perhaps a camel could also be a sagmarius in other geographical places ...
     
  21. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    Are you quite sure? There are at least three in Spanish:

     
  22. Angelo di fuoco Senior Member

    Germany
    Russian & German (GER) bilingual
    Busqué mal...
     
  23. apmoy70 Senior Member

    Greek
    PIE *tuenk, to press together cf OHG dwingen > Ger. zwingen, to compress, coerce.
    The Classical Greek verb is «σάττω» sáttō --> to stuff, compress, pack, load > fem. noun «σαγὴ» sagḕ --> pack, equipment & neut. noun «σάγμα» ságmă --> packsaddle, its diminutive «σαγμάριον» săgmáriŏn --> saddle appears for the first time in the LXX Bible > Byz. and Modern Gr. «σα(γ)μάρι(ον)» sa(g)mári(on).
    «Σαγματάς» [saɣma'tas] --> saddler, is a fairly common Modern Greek surname.
     
  24. Yuzer Junior Member

    Hebrew
    Actually Rum tended to refer to the European part which had a lot of Greeks, Slavs, etc.
     
  25. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    You must be thinking of a different usage of the name Rum. The Rum sultanate was in Anatolia and never reached to the Bosporus let alone across it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
  26. Yuzer Junior Member

    Hebrew
    I'm talking about the exonym Rum. It was applied to the Greco-Romans. The Rumelia millet was the name for Christians. The plural name of the group was Rumlar (lar=plural suffix). Most were Greeks, who were the only ones to call themselves so, Romioi. Till this day the Greek-speaking Jews who lived separately from Spanish-speaking ones are called Romaniotes.

    The Ottomans recognised only religions as distinct communities, so Judeospanish was called Yahudice, even though not all Jews spoke it but the majority. The same for Christians and Greeks speakers.
     
  27. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    That is not the relevant context here. When we are talking about Rum language in the context of Turkish etymology we mean the the vernecular of the Sultanate of Rum, a successor state to the Seljuk Empire. The official language of the Sultanate of Rum was Persian and a pre-cursor of modern Turkish existed as a popular language.
     
  28. Yuzer Junior Member

    Hebrew
    Are you sure about it? Turks "purified" their language in the 1920s from Persian and Arabic influence and claimed they're reverting to Turkish words. They used Turkic characteristics. If you say Rum is that pre-Ottoman Turkish, than they would not call it a different language as far as I know them.

    Take in account that as I said for some time language names were according to the millet, not the region or history. Rum were the Christians and continued to be the modern Greeks for centuries, and much more recently.

    I wonder when is the dictionary from.
     
  29. bo-marco Senior Member

    Modena
    Italiano Italia - Emiliano Mirandola
    In emilian it's sumèr.
     
  30. ancalimon Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    This is very recent. We also call the people from Southern Cyprus as "Rum" today. But back in the day everybody including Turks and Arabs were called Rum in Anatolia. For example even Mevlana was called a "Rum" depite being a Indo-Turkic person.
     
  31. Yuzer Junior Member

    Hebrew
    They were listed as Rum in demographic surveys though, weren't they?

    Wasn't there a division between Anatolia and Rumelia? I do know that Turkish nationalism in its current form developed about a century ago. Perhaps I differentiate for cultural reasons (my family is from Thrace and as a minority we always saw ourselves as close to Turks there but not so much in Anatolia).
     
  32. berndf Moderator

    Geneva
    German (Germany)
    Yes, Seljuk, Rum and Ottoman are the main development stages of Pre-Modern Turkish. This classification is quite well established.
     
  33. CapnPrep Senior Member

    France
    AmE
    It may be a useful as a chronological indication, but for etymology, it is unclear and incomplete. Recall what ancalimon wrote above:
    I think you have to ask the question directly: ancalimon, what do you mean by "Official Turkish dictionary"?
     
  34. ancalimon Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
  35. Giorgio Spizzi Senior Member

    Italian
    Somaro, from spoken Latin saumariu(m) — for sagmarius "bestia da soma" — from sagma, basto.

    GS
     

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