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Střední škola oborná

Discussion in 'Čeština (Czech)' started by Odriski, Mar 25, 2014.

  1. Odriski Senior Member

    Chinese
    Dobrý den! Chtěl bych vědět, jestli věta "střední škola oborná" je odlišná od větu "oborná střední škola". Je věta "oborná střední škola" správná? V jakém případe přídavné jméno musí být za podstatným jménem? Napřiklad, střední škola oborná.
    Děkuji!

    Odriski

    Good day! I would like to know, if the phrase "střední škola oborná" has the difference from "oborná střední škola". Is the phrase "oborná střední škola" correct? In what case should adjective be behind noun? e.g. střední škola oborná.

    Please help to resolve my question as soon as possible, please...
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
  2. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    For me "střední odborná škola" sounds the best, though "střední škola odborná" sounds natural, as well. The adjective is typically placed after then noun in technical terminology (kyselina sírová, oxid uhličitý ...) or in poetry, older texts, etc ... but "normally" it precedes the noun.

    (let's wait for other opinions too ...)
     
  3. Enquiring Mind Senior Member

    UK/Česká republika
    English - the Queen's
    Hi Odriski, there's no effective difference between Střední škola odborná and Střední odborná škola. Putting the adjective after a noun in Czech emphasises the adjective. Střední škola odborná distinguishes that school from, say, the Střední škola stavební, the Střední škola průmyslová, or some other type of secondary school.

    V Děčíně samozřejmě žádný vlak nečekal, tudíž jsme skončili na nádraží autobusovém, kde jsme hodinu a půl čekali na spoj do Rybniště.
    Needless to say, there was no train waiting at Děčín, so we ended up at the bus station waiting an hour and a half for a connection to Rybniště.
    Here, the writer says na nádraží autobusovém (with the adjective after the noun) to make the distinction clear between the train station and the bus station, to bring out the contrast.

    Máte koruny? Ano, ale koruny dánské.
    Have you got any crowns? Yes, but Danish ones (not Czech ones).

    I hope that helps.:)
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2014
  4. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    I think "Ano, ale dánské koruny" would also be ok, so perhaps the answer to the question
    is "v žádném". Or are there cases where the adjective really must be put after the noun?
     
  5. Odriski Senior Member

    Chinese
    Shouldn't "v žádném" mean "in no case" or "in any case"? But I want to say "in what case"
     
  6. Odriski Senior Member

    Chinese
    To francisgranada and Enquiring mind, thank you for your explanation! Because I am now studying the Czech Text written by Helei
     
  7. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    "V žádném případe" means "in no case" (in the sense of never).
    was my personal question to the natives, i.e. if there are some special cases when the adjective expicitely must follow the noun?
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
  8. ilocas2 Senior Member

    In biological names the adjective must be after the noun.

    ledňáček říční, datlík tříprstý, dvojzoborožec žlutozobý

    otherwise it's unscientific




    difference:

    velký mravenečník - big anteater (it can be any species of anteater)

    mravenečník velký - giant anteater (Myrmecophaga tridactyla)
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
  9. bibax Senior Member

    Czech
    Stojí-li přídavné jméno za jménem podstatným jedná se většinou o terminus technicus nebo o zavedený název instituce.

    Ten malý mravenečník je mravenečník velký.

    Studuji na stavební fakultě.
    Studuji na Fakultě stavební ČVUT. (oficiální název, píše se s velkým F)

    V poesii (K. H. Mácha nezklamal):

    Jezero hladké v křovích stinných (hladké jezero v stinných křovích)
    zvučelo temně tajný bol,
    břeh je objímal kol a kol;
    a slunce jasná světů jiných (a jasná slunce jiných světů)
    bloudila blankytnými pásky,
    planoucí tam co slzy lásky.
     
  10. Odriski Senior Member

    Chinese
    :thumbsup: Vsěchni dobře udělali!
     
  11. werrr Senior Member

    Grammarwise there is no restriction on the position of adjectives, but there are strong preferencies which evolve in time. In old times postposition was much more popular, nowadays it is rather unpopular.

    The only obligatory usage is with fixed names (technical terms, names of institutions...).

    As for the preferencies, the one mentioned by Enquiring Mind (nádraží and koruny) is related to topic-comment positioning. In Czech we have strong tendency to set the context (topic, old information) before we add the new information (focus, rheme). Hence the postposition of adjectives giving new information in Enquiring Mind's examples.

    Also all adjectives which expands the head word in the same way are supposed to be positioned in the same way. This is important for the inititial example střední škola o(d)borná. This word order is styllistic preference strongly advocated before WWII, today rarely taught but still practical. The splitting of the adjectives makes it clear that the adjectives are gradually expanding the head word, in other words it can't be the case of a head word expanded by a single set of multiple adjectives of the same parity (In theory, the multiple adjectives of this kind should be separated by commas in text and by pauses when speaking, but praxis is inconsistent).

    Another strong tendency for postpositioning (it could be considered even obligatory) is the case of complex adjectival constructions. Typical examples could be complex construction with comparatives (černý pes rychlejší než já) or with verbal adjectives (zlotřilý právník obhajující zloděje a vrahy). These complex constructions could be often replaced with subordinate clauses (černý pes, který je rychlejší než já; zlotřilý právník, který zastupuje zloděje a vrahy) which are also mostly postpositioned.
    Mácha je žabař, Kollár by tam klidně mrsknul "a jiných slunce jasná světů". :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  12. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    Tiež klasický výrok MUDr. Štrosmajera: "Vy krávo nebeská!"
     

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