Straight/ right?

Discussion in 'Tagalog and Filipino Languages' started by ThomasK, Nov 26, 2010.

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  1. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Can I ask if there is a link between the two words in your language(s)? Or between justice and straight? Do they have a common stem for example?
     
  2. niernier

    niernier Senior Member

    Manila, Philippines
    Bicol & Filipino
    Yes there's a link between straight and right in Tagalog. A good example is Pnoy's "tuwid na daan", a movement for good governance which means "righteous path", but can also mean "straight path". Tuwid can both mean right and straight.

    Hustisya and deretso, both borrowed from Spanish are used to mean justice and straight. However, In ordinary Tagalog conversations, deretso has its meaning limited only to "to go/keep straight on" or "to go right to the point". Deretsa and derekta, also means "to go right to the point". I believe there's no connection on the stems of justice and straight, unless you see otherwise.

    Additionally, the other meaning of deretso which is "right/privilege" as in derechos humanos(human rights) is still in use in other Philippine languages but not in Tagalog.
     
  3. DotterKat Moderator

    California, USA
    English (American)
    If you mean straight and right in the sense of being correct, just, equitable, forthright, etc. then the common stem is tuwid as indicated above. I would use the affix ma- for the Tagalog translation.

    Examples:

    Matuwid ang kanyang pakikitungo sa akin.
    He is forthright / candid / straightforward in his dealings with me.

    Matuwid ang hatol ng hukom.
    The judge's verdict is just / equitable / fair.

    The linguistic relation between justice and straight is a bit trickier. They share a common affix (ka-) but not the same stem, though both stems can mean the same.

    Justice is katarungan, the stem is tarong (Visayan).
    Straight is katuwiran (in the sense of being straight or pagiging matuwid, not katuwiran in the sense of a reason or reasoning), the stem is tuwid.

    Both katarungan and katuwiran use ka- as an affix, but have different stems. However, both these stems tuwid and tarong (in Visayan) mean straight.

    Finally, human rights is (mga) karapatang pantao. As indicated above, derechos humanos is Spanish and not Tagalog. Certain populations, especially those in Zamboanga, speak chabacano and they would probably use the Spanish term.
     
  4. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    This is very interesting, thank you! Now, I'd like to ask some extra questions, or add some notes.

    1. The derechos/... are indeed loans from Spanish, but now - thanks to you - I find out that "justus" originally meant : upright...
    2. I remembered the word 'tawid" in Arabic, so I thought, but it turned out to be spelt "tawheed", and seems to refer to monotheism, so I first read, but then I also found this reference to "tawheed" and justice... Could it be some kind of a loan from Arabic?
    What DK add is challenging: could that tawheed reference still hold then? I suppose not...

    The justice/ straight links: wow, interesting. But what is the effect of the affix? What is the meaning?

    Human rights: there we have the ka- again, but how about the -rapatang (pantao)?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2010
  5. DotterKat Moderator

    California, USA
    English (American)
    (from TK):
    ".....But what is the effect of the affix? What is the meaning? "

    We are coming close to going off-topic, but I will add that the ka- affix has many uses (including indicating the superlative degree of comparison), but in this particular case (karapatan and katuwiran) ka- + stem + -an expresses the essential nature of a thing.

    (from TK):
    "Human rights: there we have the ka- again, but how about the -rapatang (pantao)?"

    The root of karapatan is dapat or even marapat (something that is proper, right, something that ought to be). As you may have already noticed, the root word in Tagalog undergoes a lot of modification when affixes are added (thus your misapprehension that the root is -rapatang). Finally, the -ng suffix is added at the end of karapatan to indicate the possessive case. In English we can say either "human rights" or "rights of humans" (albeit the former is far more common), but in a very strict sense karapatang pantao translates more accurately to "rights of humans" precisely because the suffix -ng indicates possession, just as of also indicates possession.
     
  6. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Thanks ! You know, I did not wish to go off-topic, but I hoped to hear something 'useful', relevant -- and I did, though indeed it is not quite about 'right', etc.
     
  7. niernier

    niernier Senior Member

    Manila, Philippines
    Bicol & Filipino
    I totally forgot the katarungan and katuwiran!:D Being a Filipino myself, I have not put a thought of dissecting katarungan, because if you get the root word tarung, any Tagalog speaker won't know what this means. So doing a little research, it turns out that that tarung is a Visayan word and is equivalent to "tuwid" in Tagalog. What DotterKat added spiced up the connection between justice and straight. But when I heard the word katuwiran, the first thing that sprung to my mind is reason, because essentially, katuwiran by itself means reason.

    Remember that katarungan(justice) and katuwiran(reason) are both Tagalog words, having a root word with the same meaning which is straight. The only peculiarity in the word katarungan, is that it uses a Visayan root word tarung which is tuwid(straight) in Tagalog. So there you have the connection as pointed out by DK. Nice! :thumbsup:

    It's tuwid not tawid. But there's tawid in Tagalog. It means "to cross"
     
  8. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    I am sorry about the 'tuwid'/ 'tawid' confusion. I sometimes venture upon very peculiar 'mind flights', I know, but it is up to you to... stop me. Thanks !
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2010
  9. DotterKat Moderator

    California, USA
    English (American)
    A final thought on this thread regarding tuwid vs. tawhid. I don't find it inconceivable at all that some phonological drift has occurred through the ages on a word borrowed from another culture. There is a significant Muslim population in the Philippines and neighboring Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world. The cross cultural meaning of two words that essentially refer to concepts of straightness, the straight and narrow, oneness, or singularity is not easy to disregard. I find it entirely plausible that some language blending and drifting occurred with regards tuwid and tawhid.
     
  10. mataripis

    mataripis Senior Member

    i want to add my comment. Tuwid is straight (not necessarily right or correct)/ Right is going to right direction or in proper direction. In Tagalog right can be expresses as " tama" (maybe from Ellinika "Themis" =Justice) and Straight is matuwid or walang pagliko(no change in direction).
     
  11. miguelomanie New Member

    I am no Filipino grammar expert, but don't we also use the "ng" to link a noun and its adjective? For example, "babaeng maganda" and "magandang babae" both mean "beautiful woman." That being said, I reckon that "karapatan" (right) here is the noun, while "pantao" (human) is the adjective. So, I believe that "human rights" is an appropriate translation of "karapatan pantao."
     
  12. tatoearashiga Senior Member

    Filipino
    "babaeng maganda" does not sound right; I don't know but that is just me.
     
  13. mataripis

    mataripis Senior Member

    it is informal to say "Babaeng maganda". just say "maganda siya" (In female)) and "makisig siya" ( in male). Straight is "Matuwid" and Right is " Marapat". 1.) It is better to say it in straight manner.( Higit na mabuti kung sabihin mo iyan sa matuwid na paraan. ) 2.) It is right(appropriate) to follow the given rules. (marapat na sundin ang nakatalagang patakaran.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
  14. mataripis

    mataripis Senior Member

    Justice in Tagalog is "Katarungan" and it is related to wisdom (karunungan). I think the "rungan" in katarungan is "Dunung" or "Dungan"(from dangan- it should be/ by the laws). While straight is "Matuwid" .These 2 words , katarungan and Matuwid seems very close. In ethnic Dumaget ( an older form of Tagalog), Justice is Kamatoden(truth/justice) and Straight or righteousness is "Katoweden". In Bisaya, also an archaic form of Tagalog, There is a word "matud"! when comparing these words, all have the same root word! (Dumaget: kamatoden= kamatowden= matowd)/(Tagalog:katuwiran= tuwid=matuwid)(Bisaya: Matud and it is very related to matuwid of Tagalog).And i think that Katarungan and Katuwiran are interchangeable forms of justice and righteousness. The indonesian word "Tawhid" is also related to "Taw-hed" of Dumaget and "Tawid" of Tagalog with the meaning " forgiven" or "let it pass through"!
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
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