straszny / straszna (z niego maruda)

Discussion in 'Polski (Polish)' started by Krzys7796, May 29, 2013.

  1. Krzys7796 New Member

    English
    Hello all,

    could you please tell me which of the following is grammatically correct:

    Straszny z niego maruda
    Straszna z niego maruda

    thank you :)
     
  2. kknd Senior Member

    Polska / Poland
    polski / Polish
    Welcome to forum!

    Interesting question! I use solely second option—ta maruda—but I cannot tell for sure that ten maruda is wrong… especially when speaking about a male. I think similar rule applies to other derogatory terms of this kind (gapa, :idea: pierdoła); it almost for sure true for obscene descriptions (e.g. :cross: ciota, :cross: pizda, :cross: cipa) which have female gender but in most cases can be attributed to any sex…
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2013
  3. siurpryza Junior Member

    Kraków
    polski, Polska
    The dictionary sjp.pl (http://sjp.pl/maruda) claims that both are correct. "Ten maruda" with men and "ta maruda" with women. You can also use "ta maruda" with men, when you want to emphasize those negative traits even more.
     
  4. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Welcome to the forum, Krzys!

    They are both correct. The feminine form, as has been mentioned, is more emphatic.
     
  5. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    I think that the word maruda is of feminine gender, and respective pronouns should conform to the gender of the term, not to the gender of the person described. The same applies to other feminine substantives, like "ofiara". It is important, however, not to confuse feminine substantives with masculine substantives ending in -a (zdrajca, kierowca, radca). Here the word itself is declined like a feminine noun, but adjectives, pronouns, etc. are in masculine form.

    Examples:
    "on jest tą nieszczęsną ofiarą, której składamy hołd" (feminine gender)
    "on jest tym znanym radcą miejskim, którego widziałeś w telewizji" (masculine gender, -a ending)

    However, in sloppy colloquial speech these principles are often not respected, and general confusion is the result, and phrases like ""on jest tym nieszczęsnym ofiarą, któremu składamy hołd" occur.

    I don't consider this to be correct Polish, despite what certain dictionaries might write about it.

    "Maruda", may, however, have ambiguous gender, and some people may treat the word the same way as "radca"..
     
  6. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    I think the second one sounds grammatically correct, or at least more natural. It is colloquial speech anyhow, so both may probably be used.
     
  7. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    Polish ha a class of words, mostly abusive, like: maruda, oferma, pierdoła, łamaga, niedołęga, niezdara, niezguła, declined like feminine, but with an uncertain gender classification. They are mostly used as masculine nouns, and are accompanied by masculine pronouns and adjectives: “ten głupi niedołęga”. Sometimes they are treated like feminine nouns, some more often than others. For example “niedołęga” is mostly masculine, but in colloquial speech/slang can be feminine, while “maruda” is mostly feminine , but in colloquial “speech/slang can be masculine. The noun “idiota”, also a term of abuse, is always masculine in formal speech, but in colloquial speech/slang can sometimes be treated as feminine in order to strengthen the abuse.
     
  8. kknd Senior Member

    Polska / Poland
    polski / Polish
    Never heard of :cross: “ta idiota” only :tick: “ten idiota” (even in informal speech); correct substitute for female is :tick: “ta idiotka”.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2013
  9. BezierCurve Senior Member

    I have. "Co ta idota wyczynia?!" sounds familiar, my mum used to say so (being very upset).
     
  10. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Ben Jami made an interesting point about 'idiota' being used in feminine to reinforce the abuse, but I don't think I've ever heard it, either. Maybe it's something that people used to say back in the past, but it's not really used these days...? My ears are pretty sensitive to language oddities such as this, so had anyone said it, I would have sure noticed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
  11. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    I've heard it too. People also use 'idiota', and many other words, like that today. I guess it may be the question of what you're used to or, perhaps, people in your neck of the woods are not that game to offend others. I, for one, have heard 'niemota' used more in the feminine (referred to a man).
     
  12. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    So that makes three of you... fair enough. Here where I live, people are just as 'game to offend others' as elsewhere, Thomas, they just don't seem to say 'ta idiota'. I've heard 'niemota' used in the feminine many a time, too, perhaps that's the only version I've ever heard, and it sort of makes perfect sense to say so.. but 'ta idiota' -- nah -- in spite of the fact they both of these two end in 'ta'.
     
  13. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
     
  14. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    That it does exist is indisputable.. given that there are at least three foreros who have heard of it. I was wondering, though, what purpose, other than sounding odd, can it possibly serve to say 'Ta idiota', when there's a female version -- 'idiotka' -- available for everyone to use. 'Reinforcing the abuse' doesn't quite convince me, although I find all this interesting.
     
  15. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    First I’d like to explain a couple of issues:

    1. I write about a male person being called “ta idiota”, not a female, where only “idiotka” can be used.
    2. The “reinforcing” theory is my own. It’s just like I perceive the described use.
    I think that grammatically incorrect forms are sometimes used to reinforce a derogatory term. One such example may be “pieniędzory”. I don’t find more at this moment, but I think the phenomenon is certainly much widespread.
     
  16. BezierCurve Senior Member

    I agree with your theory. Another way (more legitimate) is for example using typical inanimate plural endings with animate nouns: "piraty", "profesory", "bandziory".


    In case of "pieniądzory"/ "pieniędzory" it may also have something in common with augmentative forms.
     
  17. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    I don't know what to make of it. Should I ever hear anyone say 'ta idiota', I'll just ask 'Why did you say so?', because, although Ben Jamin's theory sounds likely, there may be a better explanation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2013
  18. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    This is not a theory. "ta idiota", "ta maruda", etc.; similarly "profesory", "biznesmeny", etc.; are legitimate Polish forms, which are simply more emphatic.
     
  19. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Could it be a regional thing? I asked around, and none of my family members, friends or acquaintances has ever heard of 'ta idiota', and on hearing you say so, they'd all give you a weird look. I agree about the rest, but 'ta idiota' just grates on my ears.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
  20. BezierCurve Senior Member

    What region are you from? The first entry I found here points to Warsaw.

    Knowing it myself I know you can hear it in Dolny Śląsk.

    By the way - I've found a few entries where women used the form "ta idiota" when talking about other women (or themselves).
     
  21. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    I'm from Lubelszczyzna. As far as I can recall, Kknd is from Warsaw, and he's never heard of it. Maybe we just didn't pay enough attention... My point still stands, it sounds odd, but people no doubt use it....
     
  22. NotNow Senior Member

    English
    What is the English translation of this expression?

    Thanks.
     
  23. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    The meaning field of this word is quite wide, and is used in at least two main connotations, with many different shades. First of all it always is a unfavorable epithet for a person, mildly deprecating and condescending.
    The first core meaning is: a grumbler, a person incessantly complaining, and being a mild nuisance.
    The second is: a slow, procrastinating person, always late and staying behind the others.
    It can also be used to denote a rather indeterminate underachiever, somebody without skills and drive to do things.
    The common thing for all these meanings is that the word is mildly abusive, used often about children.

    The verb "marudzić" means: 1. To grumble. 2. To stay behind. The origin is probably from French "marauder".
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
  24. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    PWN-OXFORD:
    I've always come across the word only in the second meaning. I'm wondering if this is also the case with others.
     
  25. dreamlike

    dreamlike Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    It is. I'm most used to the second meaning your entry mentions. For the first one I'd simply use 'maruder', which communicates the idea of lagging behind better to me.
     
  26. BezierCurve Senior Member

    I've come across the first meaning only in books and possibly in a few older movies.
     
  27. Ben Jamin Senior Member

    Norway
    Polish
    I heard it mostly in the meaning "grumbler" whole my life.
     

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