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such as must of necessity

Discussion in 'English Only' started by Lamb67, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. Lamb67

    Lamb67 Senior Member

    Nay, forbid it, O my God, that I should have uttered such words as must of necessity imply the existence of any direct relationship between the Pen of Thy Revelation and the essence of all created things

    Can I insert I in the between of as and must here?


    http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-1.html and the followings is the preceding part of the article.
    The loftiest sentiments which the holiest of saints can express in praise of Thee, and the deepest wisdom which the most learned of men can utter in their attempts to comprehend Thy nature, all revolve around that Center Which is wholly subjected to Thy sovereignty, Which adoreth Thy Beauty, and is propelled through the movement of Thy Pen.

    Thanks
     
  2. panjandrum

    panjandrum PongoMod

    Belfast, Ireland
    English-Ireland (top end)
    No.
    The subject of "must imply" is "such words", not "I".
    Forbid it that I should have uttered such words.
    What kind of words?
    Such words as must, of necessity, imply the existence...
     
  3. Elwintee Senior Member

    London England
    England English
    No, you cannot insert "I". In "... that I should have uttered such words as must of necessity imply" it is the words which are (grammatically) implying, not you (although of course you are uttering them).
     
  4. Elwintee Senior Member

    London England
    England English
    Sorry, Panjandrum, my post crossed with your excellent answer, or I would not have bothered!
     
  5. Lamb67

    Lamb67 Senior Member

    The reason why we are not given a straightford word order as uttered words that imply, is because the writer is unsure of why he has done that considering HOW MUST IS USED IN 'I MUST BE CRAZY'.


    Keep in mind, however, that logical conclusion must is rarely used with the first person singular pronoun, I, because we're generally 100% sure about things concerning ourselves. (That is, we rarely need to logically conclude things about ourselves.) Hence, it's difficult to find an example where "I must stay at the office" is logical conclusion must. (Of course, you can say things like "I must be going crazy!")

    I was lucky to find out above from our WR.http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2148598&highlight=necessity+imply
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2012
  6. pob14 Senior Member

    Central Illinois
    American English
    I must remember that, Lamb67. :D

    But are you getting the point of the above posts, which is that the sentence is not saying "I must" but is saying "the words must?"
     
  7. Lamb67

    Lamb67 Senior Member

    Used to introduce an elliptical exclamation of desire: Oh, that I were rich!
    a quote from thefreedicitonary.com on THAT and probably could give me some hope of re-inserting a I as it could have been omitted.
     
  8. Man_from_India Senior Member

    Indian English
    Can I interpret this sentence this way:
    "I should have uttered such words as must of necessity imply the existence of ....." =
    "I should have uttered such words as something"
    where "something" is "must of necessity imply the existence of ..."
    Yet I am not sure what is the meaning of "must of necessity"?
     
  9. Lamb67

    Lamb67 Senior Member

    that I should have uttered such words ! as I must of necessity....
    elliptical exclamation
    Can I reinterpret it as above to meet my fancy?
     
  10. wandle

    wandle Senior Member

    London
    English - British
    No.
    First of all, 'as' in this case is not comparing two objects (words and something else).
    Secondly, 'of necessity' simply means 'necessarily' or 'inevitably'.

    How does 'as' work here? It is part of 'such...as...', a phrase describing 'words' by introducing a clause explaining what the words would do.

    To understand 'such...as...', take a simpler example.
    If someone says 'We need the right cars for this', you might ask 'What sort of cars?' The reply could be:
    'Such cars as can travel off road'. This simply means: 'Cars which can travel off road'.

    Hence, 'such words as must of necessity imply the existence of X' means 'words which necessarily imply that X exists'.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  11. Thomas Tompion Senior Member

    Southwest France
    English - England
    It depens how you go on, Lamb.

    Your original went on 'imply'. The words were the subject of the clause. If you are going to introduce a new, different, subject, you will need to alter the verbs too, of course.
     
  12. Lamb67

    Lamb67 Senior Member

    Probably its writing style on the whole is different from the current one ?
    nay forbid it, omg, that....= nay God forbid it that. is that correct?
     
  13. Thomas Tompion Senior Member

    Southwest France
    English - England
    God forbid that... is relatively normal.

    If you want to find out idiomatic phrases similar to these, I'd recommend going to the BNC (Corpus), which will give plenty of examples, rather than engaging in a process of trial and error here.
     
  14. Man_from_India Senior Member

    Indian English
    Thanks Wandle for such fabulous explanation, usage of "such...as" here is clear. But the "must of necessity" part is still under confusion.
     
  15. wandle

    wandle Senior Member

    London
    English - British
    The phrase 'of necessity' means 'from necessity' or 'necessarily'. This means that the words used logically entail the result mentioned. It is a necessary consequence of using those words.
     
  16. Kevin70s Senior Member

    Mandarin/Chiu Chow/Cantonese
    "Nay, forbid it, O my God, that I should have uttered such words as must of necessity imply the existence of any direct relationship between the Pen of Thy Revelation and the essence of all created things."

    Can I paraphrase the above sentence as: I wish I had not uttered such words that must inevitably imply the existence of ..."?
     
  17. Thomas Tompion Senior Member

    Southwest France
    English - England
    That would be better without the such, Kevin.

    I wish I had not uttered words which must inevitably imply the existence of...
     

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