Sus padres no la dejan salir / que salga (Subjunctive, dejar)

Discussion in 'Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés' started by Golfmaster65, Dec 31, 2012.

  1. Golfmaster65 Senior Member

    English-United States
    Why in this sentence is the direct object pronoun in here?

    Sus padres no la dejan que salga con sus amigos.

    I understand if you said it like...... Sus padres no la dejan salir con sus amigos

    Could someone please explain the first one?
     
  2. Lurrezko

    Lurrezko Senior Member

    Junto al mar
    Spanish (Spain) / Catalan
    Dejar (con el sentido de permitir) puede ir seguido de infinitivo (no la dejan salir) o de subordinada (no la dejan que salga). El sentido es el mismo. La es OD en ambos casos.

    Un saludo
     
  3. Golfmaster65 Senior Member

    English-United States
    Not to be a prick, but that really doesn't explain anything about why it is in there..........could some other people weigh in on this?
     
  4. Lurrezko

    Lurrezko Senior Member

    Junto al mar
    Spanish (Spain) / Catalan
    Maybe this link helps:

    Los verbos hacer y dejar, cuando tienen sentido causativo, esto es, cuando significan, respectivamente, ‘obligar’ y ‘permitir’, siguen la misma estructura que los verbos de influencia: «verbo causativo + complemento de persona + verbo subordinado». Tanto hacer como dejar tienden a construirse con complemento directo si el verbo subordinado es intransitivo: «Él la hizo bajar a su estudio y le mostró el cuadro» (Aguilera Caricia [Méx. 1983]); «Lo dejé hablar» (AzuelaTamaño [Méx. 1973]); y tienden a construirse con complemento indirecto cuando el segundo verbo es transitivo: «Alguien lo ayudó a incorporarse, lo estimuló y hasta le hizo tomar café» (JmnzEmán Tramas [Ven. 1991]); «El alcaide de la cárcel le dejaba tocar el banjo todas las mañanas» (Cela Cristo [Esp. 1988]).

    Saludos
     
  5. Wildcat1 Senior Member

    Amer. English
    The direct object pronoun here is "la" and means "her". It is present for the same reason that "her" is present in the equivalent English sentence.
    This language is not appropriate in a forum like this.
     
  6. Golfmaster65 Senior Member

    English-United States
    I can understand when indirect object pronouns are in sentences such as the following........

    El profesor les dice que estudien

    Le recomiendo que levante pronto

    Te aconsejo que tengas cuidado

    I finally understand this as I initially had trouble understanding why you would put the indirect object pronouns in there( les,le,te)

    It doesn't make sense to put "la" I there which is a direct object pronoun. The reason is because......"que salga con sis amigos" can be reduced to a direct object pronoun seeing as how it is a noun clause.


    Sorry if the language was offensive.
     
  7. Wildcat1 Senior Member

    Amer. English
    A couple of comments, which you may or may not find satisfying. :)

    It's well known that Spanish often "echoes" a noun with a pronoun: "Al profesor le dije que..." "Logically" the "le" shouldn't be there, but languages often aren't logical. (I realize that this is a different construction from the one you asked about, but the "redundant" pronoun is relevant.)

    Another thing you might want to think about are (colloquial) English sentences like, "I like it that he always tries to be helpful". As with "dejar" in your Spanish sentence, "like" here has both a pronoun direct object and a clause serving as a direct object. Maybe observing this in your own language will make you more accepting of the Spanish construction. :)
     
  8. SevenDays Senior Member

    Spanish
    Sus padres no la dejan que salga con sus amigos

    It may seem counterintuitive, but what happens with the verb dejar is that "la" functions as direct object and the "que" clause (que salgan con sus amigos) takes on the syntactic function of predicative/complement; that is, an element that completes the meaning of that direct object. Infinitives have much in common with the subjunctive, so it's no surprise that "sus padres no la dejan salir con sus amigos" carries the same meaning. (With a little more detail, which you may ignore if it's confusing: The subject of the infinitive "salir" [ella] becomes the direct object of "dejar" ["la"] when you switch to the "que" clause.)
    I think it's fair to say that some will use "le", arguing that "le" is the indirect object because the "que" clause is the direct object. But, that's not how I see things.
    Cheers
     
  9. Golfmaster65 Senior Member

    English-United States
    Wildcat1......

    Very good point and very interesting.......yeah it doesn't make seance in English either but it is just the way we say it sometimes.
     
  10. Wildcat1 Senior Member

    Amer. English
    I think this is also a good analysis of my "I like it that ..." sentence above. Another example that may fit in this category: "I love it when she kisses me".
     
  11. Golfmaster65 Senior Member

    English-United States
    I guess all of it makes sense but the problem is that It would just be hard to know when to use this. I mean......for instance you always know when to use the preterite and imperfect, por vs para, ser vs estar, ect. But ......I just don't know if I would know at all when to use this kind of construction.
     
  12. geostan

    geostan Senior Member

    English Canada
    Another point is that the use of the direct object pronoun makes it clear that the subject of salga is feminine, although in a given context this would probably be unnecessary.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  13. Golfmaster65 Senior Member

    English-United States
    One more thing.......from what I have gathered it would be perfectly acceptable to say the sentence like this......sus padres no dejan que salga con sus amigos.

    Would this be right?
     
  14. geostan

    geostan Senior Member

    English Canada
    It might be a little less idiomatic, but I don't see why not.
     
  15. James2000 Senior Member

    English - South Africa
    I've had the same problems (as Golfmaster) understanding the logic of this type of sentence.

    I'm not sure these examples are equivalent to the original question. In both of these, 'it' and what follows are essentially describing the same thing. In the original, 'la' and 'que salga con sus amigos' refer to different things.

    This explanation makes sense, but there are counter-examples that don't follow that rule, like 'aconsejar' (http://lema.rae.es/dpd/srv/search?key=aconsejar):

    La (CD) aconsejo.

    but

    Le (CI) aconsejo que no sea tonta.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  16. _SantiWR_ Senior Member

    Spanish - Spain
    Nope,

    que salga con sus amigos = salir
    la = a ella
     
  17. Wildcat1 Senior Member

    Amer. English
    I agree. But I think the main thing bothering Golfmaster was simply that in the Spanish sentence, the verb "dejar" has two direct objects, one a pronoun ("la") and one a clause "que salga...". He saw that as illogical. I only claimed to be showing that English too sometimes "illogically" allows a verb to have both a pronoun direct object and a clause direct object.

    Same thing here. What you say is correct, but I think Golfmaster knew this and was still bothered by the fact that the one verb appeared to have two direct objects.

    I think the bottom line in all this is that in English we can say,
    Her parents don't allow her to go out (normal way of expressing the idea)
    or
    Her parents don't allow ___ that she go out (unusual or old-fashioned wording, but easily understandable and "makes sense")
    but not
    Her parents don't allow her that she go out (bad, "illogical")
    and as a result, the original Spanish sentence sounds wrong to the native English-only speaker.
     
  18. Lurrezko

    Lurrezko Senior Member

    Junto al mar
    Spanish (Spain) / Catalan
    Es totalmente correcta, pero no sabemos de quién se habla, ya que el sujeto de la subordinada es tácito. ¿No dejan que salga quién? ¿Él, ella, su hermana? Se suele entender por el contexto, pero la frase no lo especifica.

    Un saludo
     
  19. Golfmaster65 Senior Member

    English-United States
    Lurrezko..... So you are saying that if I said, " Sus padres no dejan que salga con sus amigos." I wouldn't know who the" que salga con sis amigos" is describing?
     
  20. Lurrezko

    Lurrezko Senior Member

    Junto al mar
    Spanish (Spain) / Catalan
    Sí. El contexto suele aclararlo, pero no siempre:

    Lucía está siempre en casa con su hermano. Sus padres no dejan que salga con sus amigos.

    ¿No dejan que salga quién, Lucía o su hermano?

    Un saludo
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  21. Golfmaster65 Senior Member

    English-United States
    Ok.....I understand what you mean. I thought that you were saying that you would never know without the "la" in there. I was going to say , why not just say.... " sus padres no dejan que ella salga con sus amigos."



    So now that we have this clarified.......which sentence construction would be more common and natural......the one with the " la" or one more similar to the one I just mentioned( sus padres no dejan que ella salga con sus amigos)?
     
  22. Lurrezko

    Lurrezko Senior Member

    Junto al mar
    Spanish (Spain) / Catalan
    The one with 'la' sounds much more natural to me.
     
  23. Golfmaster65 Senior Member

    English-United States
    Ok......so when would I know when to use this kind of construction. Obviously, it is not something that is widely talked about. Is there any way of learning about this? Or, is it just a matter if studying the language longer and getting a feel for when to use it?
     
  24. Golfmaster65 Senior Member

    English-United States
    Is everyone done posting on this topic? The last question wasn't just directed at or person. Thanks!!
     
  25. gengo

    gengo Senior Member

    These two posts (both excellent, in my opinion) hit the nail on the head. The English is incorrect because it redundantly informs us of the gender (her and she), while the Spanish without the pronoun is lacking any gender and could therefore be ambiguous in some situations.

    Very good question and some very good replies.
     
  26. gengo

    gengo Senior Member

    I think you've hit it with that last part. It's not natural for us English speakers, but we can understand why it's used in Spanish, and with exposure it becomes cada vez más familiar.
     
  27. juan082937 Senior Member

    español
    The verb 'DEJAR' with a sense of permitir could be used with an infinitive or with a subjunctive clause witjh shades of meaning.

    WITH the INFINITIVE

    Sus padres no la dejan salir con sus amigos= there is not doubt or possibility of their opposing her to go out with her friends

    the subject of the infinitive (ella) becomes the accusative pronoun 'LA', in this case about feminine gender.
    Sus padres no la dejan a ella salir.

    the negative construction with the verb dejar ( is in the chapter of the causative and control verbs) you may use the subjuctive

    Sus padres no la dejan que salga con sus amigos, with the subjunctive, the possibility to go out with her friends is always present, different from the infinitive.

    Sus padres no dejan que ella salga con sus amigos.

    El médico ha dejado a Julia fumar
    El médico la/le ha dejado fumar (Fumar is a noun) in English the gerund, direct object)

    El médico se lo ha permitido
    El médico se lo ha dejado hacer
     
  28. Lurrezko

    Lurrezko Senior Member

    Junto al mar
    Spanish (Spain) / Catalan
    Yo no veo matiz alguno entre el uso de la construcción con infinitivo y el uso de la construcción con subordinada. Por otro lado, no es necesario que el verbo de la principal esté negado para usar la construcción con subordinada:

    Sus padres la dejan salir.
    Sus padres la dejan que salga.

    El médico me deja fumar.
    El médico me deja que fume.


    Un saludo
     
  29. jmx

    jmx Senior Member

    Barcelona
    Spain / incorrect Spanish
    Yo estoy desconcertado por estas frases:

    Sus padres la dejan salir.
    Sus padres la dejan que salga.


    ¿Es así como lo dice la mayoría de la gente? Porque yo creo que lo diría así:

    Sus padres le dejan (a ella) salir.
    Sus padres le dejan (a ella) que salga.


    Me gustaría saber cómo dirían esas frases especialmente los hablantes latinoamericanos. Gracias.
     
  30. gengo

    gengo Senior Member

    I think that is leísmo. Dejar takes a direct object, which in this case is ella, so the pronoun replacing ella is la, not le.
     
  31. Julvenzor

    Julvenzor Senior Member

    Sevilla
    Español propio (Andalucía, España)

    Yes, you're right. It's leísmo.

    Lo siento, jmartins. Con 'le" sería incorrecto. Ahí se necesita un pronombre de acusativo (lo/la). No se engañe por el 'a' personal, 'ella' es complemento directo (CD=OD).

    Un saludo a los dos.
     
  32. _SantiWR_ Senior Member

    Spanish - Spain
    Yo uso la en este caso. No la dejan salir. Esto es lo que dice el DPD:

     
  33. jmx

    jmx Senior Member

    Barcelona
    Spain / incorrect Spanish
    Ahora "no la dejan salir" ya no me suena tan mal, pero la otra sigo sin verla clara, así que he abierto este hilo.
     

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