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Syrian Arabic: idaafa and adjectives

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by WannaBFluent, Feb 14, 2014.

  1. WannaBFluent

    WannaBFluent Senior Member

    French (فرنسي)
    السلام عليكم

    Here is what I read in a book :

    كتاب الأستاذ الجديد
    ktaab él-éstaaz lé-jdiid
    The new book of the teacher

    كتاب أستاذ العربي
    ktaab éstaaz él-3arabi
    The book of the teacher of Arabic

    Is it normal that the word éstaaz in the second sentence does not have the definite él?

    And I wanted to know, how do we know what word of the idaafa is completed by the adjective?
    For example, in the sentence :

    كتاب الأستاذ الجديد
    ktaab él-éstaaz lé-jdiid
    The new book of the teacher

    How can I say : The book of the new teacher? Do I have to remove the él of the word éstaaz?

    كتاب أستاذ الجديد
    ktaab éstaaz lé-jdiid
    The book of the new teacher?

    And how can I say : The book of Arabic of the teacher? Do I have to add él of the word éstaaz?

    كتاب الأستاذ العربي

    ktaab él-éstaaz él-3arabi
    The book of Arabic of the teacher?

    So it would mean that if the second noun of the idaafa begins with él, it is the first noun which is completed with the adjective.
    And if the second noun does not begin with él, it is the second noun which is completed with the adjective.

    Or does the missing él of the second sentence was just a mistake? Then how do I know which word is completed by the adjective?

    I hope I am clear, if you need further information, please ask.

    بارك الله فيك
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2014
  2. Rmacaw Senior Member

    ملبورن استراليا
    English انجليزية
    Hi,
    As I understand it:

    كتاب استاذ العربي is correct. In a multipart idafa, only the very last word gets the article ال

    كتاب الاستاذ العربي does not mean quite what you want - it means the book of the Arabic teacher ( or the Arabic book of the teacher ). العربي here is an adjective, not one of the idafa nouns.

    In fact, when the genders are all the same, you can't distinguish which noun the adjective refers to. كتاب الاستاذ الجديد means both the book of the new teacher and the new book of the teacher.

    I believe that if gender or context can't resolve it, writers use a preposition instead, eg الكتاب الجديد للاستاذ or something like that...
     
  3. analeeh Senior Member

    English - UK
    (i)ktaab l-istaaz li-jdiid.

    I'm not 100% sure whether the idiomatic way of saying 'the teacher of Arabic' is istaaz il-3arabi but I am pretty sure this is right (I describe myself as a mdarris ingliizi, but what is the definite? I think mdarris il-ingliizi). In which case, (i)ktaab istaaz il-3arabi is 'the Arabic teacher's book, and ktaab l-istaaz il-3arabi is 'the Arab teacher's book' or 'the teacher's Arabic book'.

    In Syrian there are a number of ways of circumventing the iḍāfah - there is a particle tabaa3 (fem. tabaa3it, pl. tabaa3uul, although agreement is optional), alongside various regional variants (Damascus has some weird form which I've forgotten) and the MSA-esque prepositions la- and min- and so on. These are used a lot with loanwords and I think with e.g. more abstract relationships, as well as situations where iḍāfah is difficult (e.g. where the possessed thing is definite but the possessor is definite, or for example in the sentence taba3 miin ha-š-šanta? ('whose bag is this?)
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2014
  4. WannaBFluent

    WannaBFluent Senior Member

    French (فرنسي)
    So, it means that in the sentence, the word العربي can be a noun OR an adjective (if there is no definite particle él in the two previous word, it's a noun, part of the idaafa, and if there is a definite particle in the previous word, it is an adjective)?

    كتاب أستاذ العربي
    ktaab éstaaz él-3arabi
    él-3arabi is a noun.

    كتاب الأستاذ العربي

    ktaab él-éstaaz él-3arabi
    él-3arabi is an adjective.

    And these two sentences have the same meaning.

    So you confirm what Rmacaw said?

    كتاب أستاذ العربي
    ktaab éstaaz él-3arabi

    كتاب الأستاذ العربي

    ktaab él-éstaaz él-3arabi

    Both means : The book of the teacher of Arabic AND The book of Arabic of the teacher.
     
  5. analeeh Senior Member

    English - UK
    In this case they have approximately the same meaning (although one of them could mean 'the Arab professor' whereas the other one couldn't), but you shouldn't take that as meaning that the structures are equivalent.

    Also, not exactly. The first means 'the Arabic teacher's book' and has two iḍāfāt: [ktaab [istaaz il-3arabi]]. Istaaz is annexed to il-3arabi and ktaab to the whole phrase istaaz il-3arabi. The second has a different structure: there is one iḍāfah [ktaab il-istaaz] and an adjective, which is ambiguous because it could be modifying either istaaz (in which case it means 'the book of the Arab teacher') or ktaab (in which case it means 'the teacher's Arabic book'). Context will disambiguate.
     
  6. WannaBFluent

    WannaBFluent Senior Member

    French (فرنسي)
    I think I got it, barak Allahu fik brother! :)
     
  7. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    They are not the same.
    1. The book of the teacher of Arabic
    2. The book of the Arab teacher, or the Arabic book of the teacher
     
  8. WannaBFluent

    WannaBFluent Senior Member

    French (فرنسي)
    هدا الكتاب الجديد للأستاذ
    haada lé-ktaab lé-jdiid lé-l-estaaz
    This is the new book of the teacher

    هدا الكتاب للأستاذ الجديد

    haada lé-ktaab lé-l-estaaz lé-jdiid
    This is the book of the new teacher

    Correct?

    Ok, I got it, this means that when él-3arabi is part of the idaafa, we know that it completes the previous word of the idaafa. And when it is not part of the idaafa (so the previous word has the definite article) then it could complete either the two nouns of the idaafa, so we don't know! Is it correct?
     

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