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tak znow dzieciątkiem inny a ten samy

Discussion in 'Polski (Polish)' started by panzona, Sep 16, 2013.

  1. panzona

    panzona Senior Member

    Hello everybody! :)
    (I'd never have thought I would visit this 'side' of the forums, but here I am, asking for your expertise!)

    I have just finished to translate a text from English into Italian, and there is in it a Polish poem which puzzles me: it is the inscription on a tomb of a woman, the mother of the Polish political activist and philosopher August Cieszkowski, who is buried in the Santa Croce church. To her, an impressive funerary monument was erected, work of the poet, professor (and sculptor) Teofil Aleksander Lenartowicz, who at the time also lived in Florence.

    I had the poem (also by Lenartowicz) translated into English in my text, but some passages doen't really make sense: of course, it is an allegory, and from the late nineteenth century, but still, some verses are really 'strange' in the English translation, therefore very hard for me to translate into another language. The poem goes like this (no copyrighted material):

    (...)
    z za wrót grobowych kędy go posieią
    And from the gates of the grave, where they will put/send him
    po drugiej stronie tej ƶałosnej bramy,
    On the other side of the mourning gate
    jak dzieckiem przyszedł na przeciwną dolę
    Like when he came as a child to meet the adverse destiny

    tak znow dzieciątkiem inny a ten samy.
    This time a child again - different, yet the very same

    (...)

    (I have copied the inscription, which is all in capital letters, and the punctuation; the latter seems to suggest a different separation of the verses from what appears in the English translation...:confused:)

    The verse in the thread subject is what puzzles me most: I don't know Polish (although I have checked on the dictionary every single word of this poem :D), but I have studied Russian, and it seems to me that the aforementioned verse (...dzieciątkiem ...) has nothing to do with a "dozen", but it's still indicating the child... or am I mistaken?


    Any help will be greatly appreciated! (And, if anyone could be interested, I have pictures of the monument and the inscription)

    Thank you,
    :) :)

    P.S. I know that there might be more problems than just one... "from an opposite destiny", for instance... but I'm trying to be good, and respecting the "one question-one thread" policy... :p
    Thank you again!
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
  2. BezierCurve Senior Member

    Hi Panzona,

    I think you did really well.

    It's "child" indeed, no "dozen" in there.

    Here's how I'd understand this poem after a few minor changes (please, excuse my non-lyrical style):

    ieśli z miłością wiarą i nadzieią
    If with Love, Faith and Hope
    zmarły opuszczał ten padół żałoby,
    The Dead left this Valley of Mourning
    na krótko aniół zawiera go w groby:
    The Angel seals his tomb just for a brief moment
    z za wrót grobowych kędy go posieią
    And from the gates of the grave, where they will put/send him


     
  3. panzona

    panzona Senior Member

    Thank you BezierCurve!
    Unfortunately the complicated verse is not in the post anymore, but thank you for your confirmation that "dzieciatkiem" had nothing to do with numbers!
    :)
     
  4. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Not sure if it's important for your Italian translation, but, just in case, 'dzieciątko' is not a word we typically use in everyday Polish. I'd say that it's typical of literary or religious texts (you will often see it used in reference to the Child Jesus, for instance). You will find more such words in the poem in question.

    The line in the title of the thread is, I think, a description of what happens after death -- rebirth (very likely a reference to new life in heaven according to Christianity).

    It's odd that the text got deleted although it's not copyrighted :confused:. Anyway here is the whole text of the poem (you will find it on some Polish tombs too): http://www.infochoty.waw.pl/309/i309s2.html

    The following line (#5):
    PO DRUGIEJ STRONIE TEJ ŻAŁOSNEJ BRAMY,
    prompts me that the last verb in Bezier's translation should be 'put' (or 'left').


    Oh, and welcome to this side of the forums. :)
     
  5. BezierCurve Senior Member

    Panzona, before our posts got edited I sent you a copy of the original answer to your PM.
     
  6. panzona

    panzona Senior Member

    Thank you all for your help!

    Thomas, I was aware that the language is not at all 'everyday language' (if anything, by the fact that I couldn't find some of the words in the dictionaries!), it is in fact an allegoric poem of the romantic period (do I need to add more? ;) ); that's why I had posted the entire poem, because I thought that only a portion wouldn't help to really understand and therefore translate.

    As per the posted text, Paul explained to me that as moderators they have no way of finding out if a poster is telling the truth or not about copyright, which I can understand, so they behave as all materials were copyrighted, hence the cut. I have reinstated, though, the "right" portion of the text (with the amended translation), otherwise your kind answers seem out of context!

    Again, many thanks
    :) :)
     

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