The meaning of את after a few verbs

Discussion in 'עברית (Hebrew)' started by Konstantinos, Apr 21, 2014.

  1. Konstantinos

    Konstantinos Senior Member

    Athens, Greece
    Greek - Athens
    מנקים את
    מנקה את
    רוחץ את
    משקה את
    מסדרים את
    מסדר את
    שם את
    תולה את
    מגהץ את
    שוטף את
     
  2. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    its a copula... it doesnt exist in english... after that comes the subject.
     
  3. Konstantinos

    Konstantinos Senior Member

    Athens, Greece
    Greek - Athens
    I like Hebrew more now... Thank you arielipi...
     
  4. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Wrong twice: It's not a copula it's preposition. And after it comes the direct object not the subject.

    It is usually only used if the direct object is definite.
     
  5. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    Ok, thanks for the correction (i never really remember the names)ץ
    just fyi - et can be seen as a copula as it can always be omitted (just saying).
     
  6. evilwarlock New Member

    Bullhead City
    English-USA
    Is there anything else you can possibly expound on about the preposition that would help me understand it?
     
  7. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    It just marks the direct object (and only when it is definite). There isn't much else to it. It can sometimes help to distinguish the direct object from the subject if the word order is changed:

    הילד אכל את התפוח (ha-yeled achal et ha-tapuach) = The boy ate the apple.
    את התפוח אכל הילד (et ha-tapuach achal ha-yeled) = The boy ate the apple. (not The apple ate the boy.)

    but:

    את הילד אכל התפוח (et ha-yeled achal ha-tapuach) = The apple ate the boy.
    התפוח אכל את הילד (ha-tapuach achal et ha-yeled) = The apple ate the boy. (not The boy ate the apple.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
  8. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    Drink, its incorrect, i can e.g. say
    קח את ילדינו הביתה
    not he hayediah there. et relates to our children, not to the house.
    to the extreme:
    קח את ילדינו לביתם.
     
  9. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    In those sentences, את ילדינו is the direct object, while הביתה and לביתם can be considered either adverbial phrases or indirect objects. So I don't understand your point.
     
  10. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    That you dont have to have he heayediah when having et.
    when i think about it, when speaking with the possesive form, you cant not have the word et; while regularly speaking you can omit it at any time.
     
  11. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    I didn't say you have to have a he heayediah, just that it has to be definite. A noun can be definite without a he heayediah if it has a possessive suffix (ילדינו), if it is a proper noun (ישראל), or if it is a smichut followed by a definite noun (ארץ ישראל, ארץ ילדינו, ארץ הילדים).
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
  12. evilwarlock New Member

    Bullhead City
    English-USA
    It was stated that את is usually only used if the direct object is definite. What are the exceptions?
     
  13. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    It is never used when the direct object is indefinite and it is almost always used when the direct object is definite. There are no regular "exceptions"; it is just simply omitted sometimes.
     
  14. David S Senior Member

    Richmond, VA, USA
    English - US
    When is it okay to omit and when is it mandatory?
     
  15. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    What I was trying to say is that it is never mandatory, but always preferred (when the noun is definite).
     
  16. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    "Copula" doesn't mean something that can be omitted.
    The copula in Hebrew (verbe "to be" in the present) is omitted, but it doesn't mean that omittable words are copulae.
     
  17. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    The only instances of et-dropping when object is definite that I know of, are before "hakol" and before "zot" (vs. "et ze").
    I don't think I've ever seen that in any other context that is not biblical.
     
  18. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    but in possessive form it is mandatory (or at least very strange when omitted) - any explanation to that?
     
  19. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    Drink already explained that.
     
  20. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Can you give some examples of when you would omit it?
     
  21. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    I'm saying I can't think of any
     
  22. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Not necessarily possessives, just any examples.
     
  23. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    הילד אכל התפוח
     
  24. Drink Senior Member

    New England
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    So people actually say that? I could take a guess and say that the difference with possessive suffixes might be that they sound formal and people tend not to drop את in formal situations.
     
  25. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    Isn't et-dropping precisely more formal?
     
  26. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    it is hadronic, but in possessive form i cant take it out.
     
  27. David S Senior Member

    Richmond, VA, USA
    English - US
    Are you saying that this is correct:

    הילד אכל (את) התפוח האדום

    but you must leave in the את with:

    הילד אכל את התפוח שלי?

    What about with names?

    Can you say:

    אני מבקר אמא ולירון

    or do you need the את between מבקר and אמא/לירון?
     
  28. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    Arielipi talked about possessive *suffixes*. So not constructions like " ha-tapuax sheli" , but rather "tapuxi" (if you can say such a thing... ).
     
  29. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    Possessive suffixes, names I can't take out the et word. Sounds unnatural
     
  30. David S Senior Member

    Richmond, VA, USA
    English - US
    Would it be accurate to say that "את" is optional before "ה" but if there is no "ה" then "את" is mandatory?
     
  31. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    To me yes.
     
  32. arbelyoni Senior Member

    Hebrew
    I don't think it's mandatory or stranger than dropping את in other positions.
     

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