1. The WordReference Forums have moved to new forum software. (Details)

The power of the Planets

Discussion in 'Cultural Discussions' started by pedro0001, Sep 30, 2006.

?

Do you believe in astrology?

  1. Yes, I do.

    12 vote(s)
    17.6%
  2. No, I don't.

    56 vote(s)
    82.4%
  1. pedro0001

    pedro0001 Senior Member

    Deutschland (Schwäbisch Gmünd).
    Español (Argentina)
    According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary "astrology" is defined as:

    The divination of the supposed influences of the stars and planets on human affairs and terrestrial events by their positions and aspects.

    In Wikipedia there is a small report about astrology (which I don't thing is going to change your opinion about astrology, but at least there is a little history).

    I, personally, don't believe in astrology. But I'm also atheist and don't even believe in the existence of the soul.

    I'm frighten to see how many people do believe in astrology. Even some people I know and that I consider intelligent people believe in things like the natal chart or in the zodiac signs.

    I have two questions for this thread:

    Do you believe in astrology? Why? Why not?
    In case you don't, what do you think about the people who do believe?
     
  2. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    EEUU-inglés
    I believe in the beauty of daylilies. To each his own.
     
  3. Chazzwozzer

    Chazzwozzer Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Turkish
    I don't see there's anything I can believe that astrology is real. As a currently-deist, I don't believe such supernatural events or soul either, I simply believe what science says.

    I have many friends reading their horoscopes everyday, I think they follow simple Turkish saying: "Don't believe future telling, but keep listening to it."
     
  4. Tsoman Senior Member

    New York
    English -- US
    I don't believe in astrology, but I do believe in the supernatural
     
  5. cubaMania Senior Member

    No, of course not. After all this time there is not one single shred of evidence for it, and astrologers present us with no logical basis for their beliefs.

    It is tempting to ascribe this to ignorance, lack of education, and probably most of the time it is. However, I know one very intelligent, otherwise-rational, highly-educated person who believes astrology. It is a complete mystery to me how this can be true.
     
  6. pedro0001

    pedro0001 Senior Member

    Deutschland (Schwäbisch Gmünd).
    Español (Argentina)
    Don't you want to explain better what you mean?
     
  7. pedro0001

    pedro0001 Senior Member

    Deutschland (Schwäbisch Gmünd).
    Español (Argentina)
    As there is no evidence for the existence of God. Nevertheless many educated and intelligent people, as in your example, believe.

    I feel for you.
     
  8. la reine victoria Senior Member


    Perhaps not to you, personally. He probably hasn't revealed himself to you or you haven't looked for him.

    I believe in a "higher power" whatever name you like to give that power. I have plenty of evidence to support my belief (this topic has been discussed many times before in the forum). That is why I don't believe in astrology.

    For those who do believe in it, that is entirely their own business.






    LRV
     
  9. pedro0001

    pedro0001 Senior Member

    Deutschland (Schwäbisch Gmünd).
    Español (Argentina)
    Even when He would have revealed himself to me, from the scientific point of view is no proof, no evidence. But let's remain on topic :)
     
  10. Maja

    Maja Senior Member

    Binghamton, NY
    Serbian, Serbia
    Do you deny Moon's influence on the tide as well?
     
  11. argosdex Senior Member

    Louisiana, US
    US, English/Spanish
    Utterly pointless discussion. Those that believe in a "higher" being will never be convinced otheriwise, some claim to have "evidence", however said evidence would never stand up in a court of law. At least not in countries where the laws were not written by religious fanatics.

    Therefore when you claim that god told tou to do XYZ, if it's illegal you still go to jail.

    Those who do NOT belive in a higher being and who base their opinion on scientific fact will never be convinced either, that there is some old man in a white beard wearing a toga that's going to punish you if you are a bad boy. He loves you but if you are bad he will kill you, and send you to a very bad place where there is lots of fire and pain that is run by a guy with horns in his forhead.

    Meanwhile a lot of us silently think, it's ok you can send me to hell, I'm married it can't be any worse than this.

    Astrology is yet another pile of gibberish, like witches, elves, fairies, etc. So, there's 6, 7 (?) billion people on the planet and they all got the same basic 12 different characteristics depending on what day of the month they were born and according to the position of 8 planets, but ooops now it turns out that Pluto is not even a planet anymore. Wait a minute, I feel like I am changing...

    Back to the drawing board... must be a real pain having to do all those charts over again, I can just see the lawsuits.

    Ultimately we humans are still very primitive, despite all our little electronic toys, and we're still very much afraid of the dark and of the uncertain, most people can't deal with this, so they cling to the idea that there is an afterlife or that they can chart out their lives and somehow have control over something they really don't.

    But in a way I envy them because they will die a lot more at peace than I will, because all that's going to go through my head is, "oh boy, that's all folks".

    Meanwhile I will live out my primitive, savage life in my 100 acres of land with my shotgun by my side and shoot at anyone that dares bring religion onto my property.
     
  12. Tsoman Senior Member

    New York
    English -- US
    I think that there is more than the physical world that we see around us. We go somewhere when we die.



    There is no nothingness
     
  13. Brioche

    Brioche Senior Member

    Adelaide
    Australia English
    I don't believe in astrology.
    I'm a Leo, and Leos aren't taken in by bunkum.
     
  14. Daddyo Senior Member

    USA
    Spanish
    I believe in astrology.
    It doesn't matter to me that the planets are so far away that the next closest one would take me about five months to reach if I were travelling at about 60,000 miles an hour.
    Never mind that the closest star is so far away that light takes a bit longer than four years to get there even travelling at the jaw-dropping speed of 299 792 458 m/s. [SIZE=-1]
    Doesn't even matter that (as far as science can tell) the only long-range force in the universe is gravity, and as to gravitational influences in my life none can overcome the 5.976 × 1024 kilograms of Earth right under my feet.
    Faith and, consequently, belief are irrational.
    So I think that anyone that doesn't have a little something in their life that has to be taken on faith is missing out on a good chunk of the universe.
    [/SIZE]
     
  15. spakh

    spakh Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Anatolian Turkish
    Simply, no.
     
  16. Etcetera

    Etcetera Senior Member

    St Petersburg, Russia
    Russian, Russia (St Petersburg)
    I don't believe in astrology. I believe in God.
    Horoscopes are just silly. How can totally different people experience the same things just because they were born on one and the same day?
     
  17. spakh

    spakh Senior Member

    Istanbul
    Anatolian Turkish
    I just agree with you.
     
  18. maxiogee Senior Member

    imithe
    The expression "believe in" is usually only used when one is discussing things for which there has been no proof and for which there is no rational explanation. We tend not to talk of "do you believe in volcanoes" or "do you believe in French".

    There are many things I don't believe.
    Many people don't agree with me.
    As long as they don't try to 'sell me' their beliefs that's fine by me.
    As long as their beliefs don't impact on my life, that's fine by me also.

    If Mary X consults an astrological chart before she decides where to go on holiday next year, good for her.
    If Bill Y consults an astrological chart before deciding whether to employ me, I might begin to be worried.
    If Prime Minister Z consults an astrological chart before enacting some law, that's going to seriously disconcert me.
     
  19. Etcetera

    Etcetera Senior Member

    St Petersburg, Russia
    Russian, Russia (St Petersburg)
    Tony, that's great! Fine examples. :thumbsup:
    I wholeheartedly agree with you.
     
  20. maxiogee Senior Member

    imithe
    Well we now know that the moon doesn't "influence" the tides, they react to its gravitational effects. Science proved that.

    To suggest that the planets affect people in some way analogous with the moon affecting the tides, wouldn't those drawing up the charts need to know the size of the planets, their mass and their motion?

    Would anyone here who believes in astrology care to show even one recognised study which proves it works?
     
  21. maxiogee Senior Member

    imithe
    Yes but, I feel exactly the same way about people who would insert "talks to God" where those examples have "consults an astrological chart" :D
     
  22. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    No, I don't believe in astrology: the idea that the constellation of the universe, the planets, the stars could tell something about an insignificatant living creature on a small blue planet somewhere in the corner of this universe sounds pretty silly. Neither do I believe in the supernatural, in small or big invisible friends, galactic Bob the Builders etc.

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     
  23. KaRiNe_Fr

    KaRiNe_Fr Senior Member

    France, Provence
    Français, French - France
    I can't answer this question as I'm not interested in astrology today. I should study it to know after if I can believe it, if it has serious facts allowing me to believe it as a sort of "science".
    Now, I can't tell (so I didn't vote as this option is not proposed!). ;)
     
  24. Chaska Ñawi

    Chaska Ñawi modus borealis

    an old Ontario farmhouse
    Canadian English
    Moderator note: We are talking about believing in astrology, not believing in God. Please keep to the topic.

    I see no reason not to believe that the planets influence us to some extent.

    I see no reason to believe that we've arrived at such a sophisticated understanding that we can understand and interpret these influences...

    ... and therefore believe that astrology is hogwash.
     
  25. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    Your starting point is that there are astrological influences, but that we (maybe) don't understand them (yet). How do you arrive at the idea that there are 'these influences'?
    Second question: why exactly the stars and the planets, and not, for example, the falling raindrops, the grass seeds flowing through the air, the movement of the ants, the place of dog dung on the pavement... [edit: or any other natural phenomenon].

    Just wondering :)

    Frank
     
  26. Maja

    Maja Senior Member

    Binghamton, NY
    Serbian, Serbia
    And that is not an influence???
    I didn't suggested that!!! But if it is proven (favorite word in this thread I see) that Moon's gravitation has a certain influence onto the nature of our planet, I don't see how can anyone easily dismiss a probability that other planets can have influences as well? It is rather inconsistent.
     
  27. Maja

    Maja Senior Member

    Binghamton, NY
    Serbian, Serbia
    As far as I know, "real" astrology is not based on that. Everyone has its own personal natal chart, and planets "influence" every persons differently depending on their natal charts!

    I am not saying that I do believe, or that I don't. My position is: EVERYTHING is possible. Whether it is probable or likely to happen, that's another story!!!

    Many of you said: I believe in proof and science. Did science proved that there IS no God or that there is NO influence of the planets???
    Science today is quite different that it was say 50 years ago... Scientists' "proofs" change every day, they refute their own claims and positions that they once vigorously defended... They dispute each other. One says this, other that... Where is certainty in that?
    No, there is much more to life than science and there are things that science cannot explain!
     
  28. pedro0001

    pedro0001 Senior Member

    Deutschland (Schwäbisch Gmünd).
    Español (Argentina)
    No, not everything is possible.

    We are talking here about the influence of the planets over the characteristics of a person, which somehow allows also the prediction of some instances in the live of the person. Of course that planets have influence on earth. For example, without Jupiter the Earth would be bombed with meteorits. But this is not the kind of influence we are discussing.

    I agree. :)
     
  29. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    I am terribly sorry, but this doesn't make sense. Nobody has to come up with proof that something is NOT, that something does not exist. That's not how science works.
    From a scientific point of view, nobody has to prove God does not exist, or to stay on topic, nobody has to prove that there is NO astrological influence from the planets and stars.
    BTW, I don't think that you can proove that there is not a magic green dwarf under my bed.

    After this paragraph, I start to doubt what you mean by "I believe in proof and science", since there seems to be some misunderstanding about what science is about.
    A key phrase is "Science generally uses the formulation of falsifiable hypotheses." That's far away removed from your straw man argument that they 'dispute each other' and 'where is certainty in that?'

    Some interesting articles about astrology can be found here.
    Some introductory reading on science (What is science?) can be found here and here (edit: see the paragraph What Science Isn't, Part IV: Science isn't Truth and it isn't certainty)).

    In short: nobody has to prove that astrology does not work. Somebody must prove it does. So far, nobody using the scientific method and the scientific methodology could, however.

    Take good care.

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     
  30. maxiogee Senior Member

    imithe
    No, not everything is possible. I am never, no matter what I do, going to be able to fly, or to walk on the surface of the moon having arrived there under my own power.


    Science has repeatedly asked those who say there is a god, who say that they 'know' this, for evidence. None has been forthcoming. Science says, as a result, that the existence of God cannot be proved. Not that there is no God, and not that the existence of God can never be proved, but that - at present - no evidence has been found.


    Science has challenged those who say that there is planetary influence to provide evidence, again, none has been offered which stands up to scientific scrutiny - i.e. offers results which are predictable, measurable, understandable and repeatable.


    It would appear that you are right, but true scientists make hypotheses, offer explanations, conduct experiments and publish their results. Then their colleagues try the same experiments, or try to find flaws in the logic. Science is a progress - a constant updating of knowledge - and does not require anyone to believe anything "because I say so", or "because I know it to be true, but cannot explain it."


    This is very true, and science tries constantly to push back the boundaries of our ignorance, by bringing an open, sceptical and inquiring mind to bear on the dark areas of our interaction with the universe. Science accepts no boundaries to our knowledge, only current lacks in it.


    The "things which science cannot explain" are getting fewer and fewer, and the ancient explanations for them are regularly and routinely found to be fallacious and non-sensical.
     
  31. Maja

    Maja Senior Member

    Binghamton, NY
    Serbian, Serbia
    Thanks for the info. I am puzzled, however, why did you post this. If you don't believe that science is the truth, then what are we talking about here?
    I respectfully disagree. Sure there are many, many things that we know now and didn't ten years ago. But even the scientist agree that one "because" opens several new "whys". In other words, as soon as they figure smt out, several more topics are being open.

    If smt is NOT proven yet, it doesn't mean it won't be tomorrow. Who is to say what "the science" will discover or find proofs for in 10 or 20 years... I just think we should be open-minded and wait to see what the future holds for us...
     
  32. maxiogee Senior Member

    imithe
    You seem to misunderstand me.
    I have said that people who have made claims about certain things have been asked by scientists to show how they work, that they can be predicted and repeated and verified.
    Those who make claims for astrology, homeopathy and other pseudo-sciences have all failed to meet these requests.
    Science doesn't say that they don't work - those who claim that they do have been unable to show that they do. There is a huge difference between a scientist saying "In laboratory conditions we invited Mr X to show that ABC works and he couldn't." and a scientist saying "ABC doesn't work."
    You will find few scientists who make such emphatic claims about anything —> it is not in their nature or training to reject things categorically.
     
  33. Porteño Senior Member

    Buenos Aires
    British English
    I may be a romantic or maybe just stupid, but I like to believe that there is something out there more powerful than our puny selves, although I would not attempt to define it. I like to believe that at some time in the past, men had knowledge and skills that have been lost in time History shows us how civilizations have come and gone, some of which were, at the time, relatively advanced in scientific knowledge. Indigenous people have perceptions of time and relationship with the Earth which are beyong our comprehension. While I don't read nor believe in horoscopes, fortune tellers and other such trivia, it seems to me that astrology might pertain to one of those lost 'arts'. Today's purveyors thereof I consider to be nothing more than 'fortune seekers', but there are others, like many of the oriental gurus and Tibetan and Buddhist monks, who appear to have a better in-depth understanding of man's relation to the universe.

    Of course, I suppose everyone has asked the questions 'Why are we here?' or 'What's the purpose of life?' at some time during their lives but nobody has yet come up with a convincing answer yet, at least not for me Therefore, I have to fall back on the idea that there is some extraterrestrial force or power out there that does know the answer and that maybe I will find that answer when I die.
     
  34. Frank06

    Frank06 Senior Member

    Nederlands / Dutch (Belgium)
    Hi,
    Why? Because I am surprised by your claims about what science is supposed to be.
    And right now we're talking about the simple fact that science is not about truth and certainty. This is so utterly basic in a discussion about science.

    BTW, the "info" comes from the sites of the University of Georgia and California (Berkely), and were written by scientists.
    If my teeth need some care, I ask a dentist to have a look. If I need some information about science, I ask a scientist, since I think they know what they are talking about.

    Take care.

    Groetjes,

    Frank
     
  35. Maja

    Maja Senior Member

    Binghamton, NY
    Serbian, Serbia
    My claims? When did I claim anything of the sort? If you think I did, then you misunderstood me.
    Here you are, going all touchy again! No need for anger and "implied" insults... Really. :D
     
  36. cuchuflete

    cuchuflete Senior Member

    Maine, EEUU
    EEUU-inglés
    There may be an option missing from the poll:
    If you believe in a god or God, does that god or God believe in astrology?

    This may seem absurd, at first, but for the believers in some sort of extra-human intelligence/force/creator or whatever they may ascribe to their it/IT, the question is pertinent.
    Call it the theology of planetary objects, if you will.

    1- (optional) Believe in a creator of the universe
    2- That creator would have had to have made planets, suns, galaxies, etc.
    3- (Question) Did that creator intend that such objects, together with the date of birth of another creation--human--should influence said human's life?

    I suppose the absence of astro-physical material from the sacred books of some larger religions suggest that the believers in those religions should not accept astrology.
    But....that's logical, and neither religion nor astrology depend on logic.


    Hmmm...I think I'll stick to daylilies. They are not logical either, but they sure are pretty.
     
  37. Maja

    Maja Senior Member

    Binghamton, NY
    Serbian, Serbia
    OK. I agree. Scientist usually don't reject things categorically. Nor did I attack the science or scientists!!! Don't get me wrong, I do go to a doctor. :D I do believe in gravity, 3 main groups of clouds etc.
    But I also know people who got better after seeing homoeopathist or acupuncturist...

    I do have a question for you: if "astrology, homeopathy and other pseudo-sciences" meet requests and become proven, are you going to believe in them?

     
  38. maxiogee Senior Member

    imithe
    One doesn't "believe in" facts. One accepts them. I accept that it is gravity which keeps me glued to the earth. If 'the memory of water' ever becomes proven, I'll probably die of shock. If anyone ever proves that my life would have been different if Saturn had been in a different place the day I was born, I'll want to read the evidence personally.
     
  39. french4beth

    french4beth Senior Member

    Connecticut
    US-English
    I'm not a scientist, but I'm a firm believer in homeopathy - I've used it many times over the years on myself & my children as an alternative to needless courses of antibiotics & other such medications. I cannot scientifically prove to you that it works, but have seen the results for myself.

    I can't prove that oxygen is present, yet I can breathe & walk around. I can't prove that electricity exists or how it works, but if I flick a switch & something powers up , that's good enough for me.

    If you look at the timeline of our planet, and imagine the introduction of the human species along this same timeline but with the earth's history being related to a 1 year period, it has been estimated that humans came along at approximately 11:59pm/23:59 hours. If the moon and other non-earth related forces have such an incredible impact on life on ur planet, I find it arrogant to think that these same forces would not have an incredible impact on our puny little species.
     
  40. Etcetera

    Etcetera Senior Member

    St Petersburg, Russia
    Russian, Russia (St Petersburg)
    I am just sure that Christianity disapproves of astrology, as well as of palmistry, fortune-telling, and so on. But my being a Christian isn't the only reason why I don't believe in astrology. :)
     
  41. timpeac

    timpeac Senior Member

    England
    English (England)
    I'd like to say great answer!:D:thumbsup:

    Anyway, back to the question. I find this question inadequately defined. What do you mean by "believe in"? Because of the lack of definition I find I have to answer yes and no.

    No in the sense I think you probably mean. I don't believe that there is any direct influence of the position of astral bodies on our lives.

    However, I don't think that "mystic" disciplines such as astrology are without value so yes in the sense that it can teach us something. I think that they provide a structure which allows you yourself to analyse your situation. It's like when you don't know what to do and you toss a coin. How often when you do that do you feel a twinge of annoyance that it has come up with one result showing that you knew the right answer all along?

    Come on now - best of three?
     
  42. Victoria32

    Victoria32 Senior Member

    New Zealand
    English (UK) New Zealand
    (I am a Christian and I believe in the existence of the soul - which I mention because you did...) and I absolutely do not believe in astrology! I know some people who take it very seriously.. and I just can't understand them, they are otherwise intelligent people!
    The main reason why not, is that I just can't see the (alleged) mechanism... How is it supposed to work?
     
  43. maxiogee Senior Member

    imithe
    I'm not sure that this is a good enough reason not to accept it. :)
    We can't 'see' much of the solar wind, but it's there - and doing dreadful things to Mercury and Mars and would do to Earth also were it not for our magnetic field.
     
  44. Victoria32

    Victoria32 Senior Member

    New Zealand
    English (UK) New Zealand
    True... but the 'influence' of the planets should be (as I know from my astrologer friends) over character, and I just can't see how that works (or is supposed to).
    Plus, there's the argument someone else used in this thread. 1/12th of the population, shares characteristics with everyone else born that month... My brother and I, both Libra, were very similar - my ex and I (both Libra) very different!
     
  45. tolkienmex New Member

    Spanish, México
    I don't belive in astrology because to me is only a way to steal people, if you talk with an astroligist he'll only tell you about "misterious forces" but without any logical basis

    I think that most of those who belive in it only use it as a hobby
     
  46. geve

    geve Senior Member

    France, Paris
    France, French
    I believe that many many things, more than we'll ever know, have an influence on us to a certain extent. The various objects hanging out there in the sky may be one, I don't know... So I should probably vote "yes"?
    But then I don't believe that one can predict anything based on the analysis of just one factor of influence. There are just too many elements to be taken into account, no human mind can do the math. So I guess that would make me vote "no".

    Since I don't know if you can vote twice in the same poll I haven't voted at all. :D

    The fact that we don't understand how something works, doesn't mean that something doesn't work.
    Ignaz Semmelweis is one example: he prompted doctors to wash carefully their hands before examining patients. For a while they did - reluctantly - and maternal mortality rate dropped from 12% to 3%. Impressive figure, isn't it? But since the influence of microorganisms on diseases was not to be discovered until 20 years later with Pasteur, he was thrown out of the hospital and died miserably. Doctors found it extremely tedious to wash their hands.
    When my father was diagnosed with a particular syndrome (a syndrome, not a disease), we were told that a treatment could be performed. Science couldn't explain how the treatment could be efficient on the symptoms, there was no logical explanation, but it had proven to be efficient nonetheless. We didn't think once of saying "There is no scientific proof! I don't believe in it!"


    [bonus gift: the memory of water illustrated - just for the beauty of the pictures ;)]
     
  47. timpeac

    timpeac Senior Member

    England
    English (England)
    As I said in my post - one possible way is simply by providing a framework for analysis so that you take what seems relevant.

    For the 1/12 of the population bit - as I say, I'm not a believer in all this really but I understand that readings can be as accurate as you like if you know exact time and place of birth.
     
  48. pedro0001

    pedro0001 Senior Member

    Deutschland (Schwäbisch Gmünd).
    Español (Argentina)
    I wanted to add one more option to the Poll but it was too late since there were too many votes already. :(

    Exactly, at that moment the science was a still baby. Therefore, no one had the idea to analyze the correlation between washing hands and maternal and infant mortality. That would have been enough to prove the fact that washing helps. The actual reason might remain unknown, but the fact could have been proven.
     
  49. Victoria32

    Victoria32 Senior Member

    New Zealand
    English (UK) New Zealand
    Well, sadly for me I don't - I was born in a time when mothers were often heavily medicated and not capable of taking note!
    (Though I did with my sons, if they should ever want to know.)
    For me, it can only ever be within two-three hours...
     
  50. geve

    geve Senior Member

    France, Paris
    France, French
    He did - it was the whole point of his experiment! The mortality rate decreased, but no one could explain how handwashing could have played a part in this result, so the hypothesis was simply rejected by the scientific community.
    The tendency to say "I can't explain it, so it can't work" seems a bit childish to me - or vain.
     

Share This Page