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This closet is for clothes

Discussion in 'Magyar (Hungarian)' started by jiris, Mar 26, 2014.

  1. jiris Junior Member

    English – American
    Google translate tells me it is "Ez szekrényben a ruhák".

    But I think it should be "Ez szekrény a ruhákra" ?
     
  2. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    Ez ruhaszekrény. Ez ruhásszekrény.
     
  3. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    If you want to say exactly "This closet is for clothes", then "Ez a szekrény ruhákra van" sholud be the translation.
    It depends on the context, but in general, it's more natural to say as Encolpius suggests (i.e. as if it were "This is a clothes-closet" in English).

    Notes:
    - The artcicle a/az can be used also with demonstrative pronouns, unlike in English: ez a szekrény... (this closet ...)
    - In the Encolpius's examples the verb van (is) is omitted (obligatorily).
     
  4. tomtombp Senior Member

    Hungarian
    The correct literal translation is: szekrény a ruháknak or szekrény a ruhák számára. Although both sound ok, the most natural way of calling a closet for clothing is "ruhásszekrény".
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2014
  5. jiris Junior Member

    English – American
    Why ruháknak instead of ruhákra?
     
  6. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    I agree, especially with "számára" (I didn't want to discuss other possibilities for not to give a too complex/complicated answer). However, constructions like "ruhákra van" are commonly used, at least here (Kassa, etc.). Do you think this is only a regional phenomenon?
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2014
  7. tomtombp Senior Member

    Hungarian
    Yes, I'm afraid so. I would not use it neither would I understand it:confused:

    jiris: In general "for" means -nak, -nek or számára in Hungarian. This was made for you. Ez számodra készült. Ezt neked csináltam.
     
  8. jiris Junior Member

    English – American
    Yes I understand, I learned the basics of all of the cases today. But this is what confuses me, as I thought the dative case was used mainly for indirect objects, while the ra/re endings were used to designate (aside from movement), purpose, which is the case in my example...

    I'll add–– I'm not looking for an explanation of all possible uses of the dative or the ra/re formation, but if anyone can offer an explanation as to why the dative is used, I would appreciate it. It doesn't make any sense to me to use the dative here, I would have thought it would be incorrect.
     
  9. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    It is not easy to explain why exactly the -nak/-nek is necessary here (it is not used only for Dative, as you could see). I can think of the expression "valaminek készült/szánták" (= made to be/meant to be) and it is possible that the verbs (készült/szánták) could just be dropped because it turns out from the context anyway.

    However, you don't have to worry about that if you just mean to give a name to the object because then the best solution - as was mentioned above - is "ez ruhásszekrény". (But that depends on the context.)
     
  10. bibax Senior Member

    Czech
    The dative doesn't make sense to me either.

    I also found "ideális szekrény ruhák tárolására".
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
  11. tomtombp Senior Member

    Hungarian
    "Alkalmas", "szolgál", "ideális", készült, fentartott. All of them go together with -ra -re. I suspect that in most cases when they are not there they are implied. However they always need additional words like tárolás. They don't work with ruhák only. Besides, -nak -nek don't go together with any of them which is the only option when they are not used and not implied.

    I still have to think about what grammatical structure this -nak -nek is. I suspect genitive? A ruháknak a szekrénye?
     
  12. jiris Junior Member

    English – American
    I didn't really understand most of your post haha, but the nak/nek is Dative.
     
  13. NagyKiss Senior Member

    Can a word "részére" be applied to this sentence?
     
  14. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    I don't think it is here. (Explanation in no.9 above.)

    NagyKiss:
    I wouldn't say so, even if számára and részére are synonyms. Both words are used in rather special circumstances (especially in official language) so the context is not really ideal for that. Also the sentence should be more complicated (than our original one here) to be able to use it.
     
  15. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    I think it is dative (in the grammatical sense). Even your explanation (#9)
    suggests a dative construction.

    P.S. -nak/nek can be used also to reinforce the possessive, e.g. "nekem a ruhám", but this is not the case here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
  16. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    I think yes, but if no other context is given, only a simple constatation "This closet is for clothes", then "Ez ruhásszekrény" seems to be the best solution.

    P.S. "Ez ruhásszekrény" may not correspond exactly to the original English sentence from all the possible aspects, but this is normal :)... A "one-to-one" perfect translation of short phrases/sentences without more context is often impossible, even between cognate languages as e.g. the Italian and Spanish.
     
  17. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    I don't think there is much point in going into details about it but just think: if the dative equivalent in English is "to" (e.g. I gave it to you) than everytime "to" is used should be dative? Like e.g. in "looking forward to seeing you"? Obviously not... But this is beginning to lead far from the original question.
     
  18. tomtombp Senior Member

    Hungarian
    Don't worry, it didn't make much sense, I was just thinking loud. :D
    "Részére" is somewhat similar to "számára" . However, both are personifications of "ruhák" (not clearly recommended) and both are a bit formal.
    I can't tell you if it's dative or not but this is the best explanation I could think of. "Ruháknak" is the intended use of "szekrény".
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014

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