This morning I've drunk / this morning I drank

Discussion in 'Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés' started by Piponil, Dec 1, 2012.

  1. Piponil New Member

    Spain
    Spanish
    Haciendo ejercicios de present perfect vs past simple me he encontrado que con la expresión "This morning" a veces va un tiempo verbal y a veces el otro, por ejemplo:

    -This morning I've drunk a cup of cofee.
    -This morning I drank a cup of cofee.

    -This morning I've been to the Spanish embassy in Paris.
    -This morning I was to the Spanish embassy in Paris.

    Aunque podría ser past simple porque es una acción ya terminada, me parece más correcto poner present perfect,pero no acabo de aclararlo. ¿Alguien que me pueda ayudar?

    Muchas gracias.
     
  2. aztlaniano

    aztlaniano Senior Member

    Lavapiestán, Madrid
    English (Aztlán, US sector)
    O I went to the embassy.

    En ambos casos, lo normal sería past simple.
    El perfecto es posible, pero implica que la acción a lo mejor se va a repetir.
    I've already drunk one cup of coffee this morning, but I think I'll have another.
    I've been to the embassy this morning but I have to go back again later.
    Más habitual sería el uso en negativo. Puede implicar que aún queda pendiente.
    I haven't drunk a single cup of coffee this morning (the morning has not yet ended).
    I haven't been to the embassy yet.
    I didn't drink a single cup of coffee this morning. (It's past noon.)
    I didn't go to the embassy this morning. (The morning is over.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2012
  3. Piponil New Member

    Spain
    Spanish
    Muchas gracias por la respuesta, estoy de acuerdo contigo pero las frases están en afirmativo. Por lo que entiendo de tu respuesta, entonces los dos podrían valer en principio, supongo que si fuera un texto sería más fácil verlo en contexto, pero en un ejercicio para niños de la E.S.O. en que solo tienen que cubrir los huecos, me imagino que el profesor les daría los dos por buenos ¿no?
     
  4. aztlaniano

    aztlaniano Senior Member

    Lavapiestán, Madrid
    English (Aztlán, US sector)
    Cuando en el español de España se dice "Esta mañana he tomado un café", en inglés lo normal sería "This morning I had a cup of coffee.
    Un ejemplo más claro:
    En España, se dice "Esta mañana me he levantado a las ocho." Lo cual, en América, sería "Esta mañana me levanté a las ocho".
    En inglés sería: Th¡s morning I got up at eight.
    No se diría "I have got up at eight".
     
  5. inib

    inib Senior Member

    La Rioja, Spain
    British English
    I agree with Aztlaniano that in most cases it will depend on whether the morning has finished (past simple) or not (present perfect).
     
  6. Piponil New Member

    Spain
    Spanish
    I agree with you, but sometimes it's difficult to choose one or the other. In these examples I suposse the best option is the past simple.

    Thank you both!
     
  7. Pitt Senior Member

    Germany
    German
    If the morning has finished the past simple is used:
    This morning I drank a cup of coffee.

    If the morning has not finished the present perfect is used:
    This morning I'v drunk a cup of coffee.
     
  8. srb62 Senior Member

    Scotland
    British English
    An interesting thread.
    What would European Spanish speakers use in this context, I'd be interested to hear.
     
  9. inib

    inib Senior Member

    La Rioja, Spain
    British English
    In Spanish, you mean? In Spain I'm pretty sure it would nearly always be "Esta mañana he tomado un café" and it wouldn't matter whether the statement was made in the morning or the afternoon.
     
  10. srb62 Senior Member

    Scotland
    British English
    Yes, this is how I learned it - the rule of thumb (rule-of-thumb?) was that if the day had not finished, then we used the present perfect.......... however, this is certainly not the case in Latin America (which mirrors the more 'relaxed' attitude to present perfect usage that is seen in the USA), but I also wonder if it's spreading in Spain itself (I asked this once before, but didn't get any feedback)?
     
  11. aztlaniano

    aztlaniano Senior Member

    Lavapiestán, Madrid
    English (Aztlán, US sector)
    Yup, which is not usually the case in Latin American Spanish. I have the theory that peninsular Spanish has been corrupted, er, I mean influenced, by French, which in the spoken language uses the present perfect for completed actions, even far in the past, and reserves the use of the passé simple for the written language or formal situations. I have no evidence for that influence, beyond the circumstantial fact that France took over Spain for about 6 years, at the beginning of the 19th century, but failed to take over any Latin American country, except Mexico, and that was for only a couple of years.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
  12. srb62 Senior Member

    Scotland
    British English
    Interesting, my take was completely the reverse!!
    I thought the use of the present perfect was the historical norm and that there had been an increase/spread in the use of the past simple (preterite) due to the 'corrupting' influence of Latin America (in turn 'corrupted' by the 'incorrect' US usage of the past simple in place of the present perfect in English!!).
    I'd never thought of it this way.
     
  13. inib

    inib Senior Member

    La Rioja, Spain
    British English
    I just wanted to point out that Galicia is a notorious exception to what I said above. I don't know of any others, but I wonder about the Canarly Islands.
     
  14. Piponil New Member

    Spain
    Spanish
    That's true because I'm from Galicia and we don't never use the present perfect, for this reason is even more complicated. But if you only have a sentence without context, I mean only for filling the gaps, I think both options could be right, no?
     
  15. Forero Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA English
    Una expresión que marca un punto de tiempo en el pasado exige un tiempo pasado:

    Yesterday I drank a cup of coffee.
    Yesterday I went to the Spanish embassy in Paris.


    Y una expresión que marca un punto de tiempo en el presente exige un tiempo presente:

    Now I have started my coffee.
    Now I have finished my coffee.
    Now I am in the Spanish embassy in Paris.
    Now I have been to the Spanish embassy in Paris.


    La expresión this morning puede ser o pasado o presente:

    I started my coffee this morning and never got to finish it.
    I was drinking coffee this morning.
    This morning I was at the Spanish embassy in Paris.

    I have started my coffee this morning.
    I am drinking coffee this morning.
    I have been to the Spanish embassy in Paris this morning.


    Si toda la mañana de hoy ya pasó, "this morning" exige tiempo pasado. Si todavía es mañana y con "this morning" hablamos de ahora, o de toda la mañana incluso ahora, se usa con tiempo presente. Si todavía es mañana y con "this morning" hablamos de un momento ya pasado, se usa con tiempo pasado.
     
  16. Piponil New Member

    Spain
    Spanish
    Así lo he estudiado yo desde que iba la cole, por eso esta frase al aceptar cualquiera de los dos tiempos verbales resultaba liosa, pero con vuestras respuestas me lo habéis aclarado. Muchas gracias a todos.
     
  17. nangueyra Senior Member

    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Castellano-Argentina
    Hola

    Hay que tener en cuenta el momento en que se cuenta lo que pasó. Si estamos en el mismo período de tiempo, p.e. esa mañana, usamos el Present Perfect. Si lo contamos a la tarde o al otro día usamos el Simple Past.

    Saludos
     
  18. Pitt Senior Member

    Germany
    German
    :thumbsup:
     
  19. Wandering JJ

    Wandering JJ Senior Member

    England
    British English
    Hi Inib,

    I used to do business in the Canaries and the first thing I became aware of, apart from tú + tú = ustedes, was the use of the simple past in areas where I had learnt to use the present perfect.
     
  20. Wandering JJ

    Wandering JJ Senior Member

    England
    British English
    I was fascinated by your theory that languages neighbouring on France have been corrupted. The preterite (passato remoto) is also becoming obsolete in spoken Italian, apart from in the south of the country which has not moved as far as the north, which supports your view about proximity to France and influence from the French language.
     
  21. juandiego

    juandiego SE modera

    Granada. España
    Spanish from Spain
    Hello, Inib, and all.

    For some reason this may be true but I tend to think that it's because still the speaker feels a close relation to the present day even in the afternoon. However, you won't hear He tomado cafe ayer so easily save in some particular areas (of central Spain, I think) or if for some reason the speaker feels what reads in the next sentence. Contrary to the perfecto simple, the pretérito perfecto compuesto conveys a relevancy relation to the present and this its use usually respects it.

    I'm clueless on the Aztlaniano's French influence theory but I doubt it because back then the contact of the hoi polloi with the French language should have been negligible for many reasons. Hardly only six years with just a few of key French speaking individuals in political charges could have an impact on people's language back in a moment with virtually no media.
     
  22. inib

    inib Senior Member

    La Rioja, Spain
    British English
    Oh yes. I was only referring to its use with "esta mañana". It might sound like an over-simplification, but srb's suggestion that "he tomado" goes nicely for any time of the present day seems to work perfectly around here.

    Many thanks to Wandering JJ for clearing up my doubt about the Canaries.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
  23. srb62 Senior Member

    Scotland
    British English
    Is there any evidence of a proportionately high number of Canary Islanders among the Spanish who went to the Americas?
     
  24. srb62 Senior Member

    Scotland
    British English
     
  25. KirkandRafer

    KirkandRafer Senior Member

    Español (Murcia, España)
    You mean nowadays? That's certainly not the case for the majority of speakers.
    Granted, the present perfect is hardly ever used in the Spanish dialects spoken in Galicia and western Asturias due to the influence of Galician and Asturian, but that's about it. Most Spaniards use both tenses. In fact, if anything, there seems to be a growing amount of speakers from central Spain that use the present perfect in situations where most of us would go for the past simple instead.
     
  26. Wandering JJ

    Wandering JJ Senior Member

    England
    British English
    Yes, according to a Wikipedia article:

    "The variant (Canaries Spanish) is very similar to the Andalusian Spanish variety spoken in Andalusia and in much of southern Spain and (especially) to Caribbean Spanish and other Latin American Spanish dialects because of Canarian emigration to the Caribbean and Hispanic America over the years. Canarian Spanish, therefore, heavily influenced the development of Caribbean Spanish and other Latin American Spanish dialects. Hispanic America and the Spanish-speaking Caribbean islands were originally largely settled by colonists from Canary Islands and Andalusia, so the dialects of the islands were already quite close to Canarian and Andalusian speech. In the Caribbean, Canarian speech patterns were never regarded as foreign or overly distinct."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canarian_Spanish
     

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