Ti verrà chiesto di eseguire l'attivita nuovamente

Discussion in 'Italian-English' started by legnoduro, Jul 21, 2008.

  1. legnoduro

    legnoduro Senior Member

    Philadelphia, PA
    United States, English
    Salve,
    Is there a difference in meaning between these two sentences and why would the verb "venire" be used in the first sentence?

    "Ti verrà chiesto eseguire l'attivita nuovamente prima di agosto"

    "Ti sarà chiesto eseguire l'attivita nuovamente prima di agosto"

    My translation of both is:

    "You will be asked to try the activity again before August"

    Thank you
     
  2. europefranc

    europefranc Senior Member

    London
    Italian
    Hello :)

    There is no difference in the meaning. They are both used in Italian (I just personally would define "Ti verrà......" a little informal.
     
  3. legnoduro

    legnoduro Senior Member

    Philadelphia, PA
    United States, English
    Thank you for your quick reply! But why is the verb venire used? Would the translation of "Ti verrà chiesto..." more accurately be "It will come to you to be asked..." ?
     
  4. legnoduro

    legnoduro Senior Member

    Philadelphia, PA
    United States, English
    I just discovered a great discussion about the passive voice. This has explained everything.

    Thank you
     
  5. alenaro Senior Member

    Well, the truth is the grammatically correct form is the one using il verbo ausiliare "essere". So you should say Ti sarà chiesto di...

    The verb "venire" (Ti verrà chiesto di...) is commonly used with the very same meaning, but it is not grammatically correct.

    In Italian the Verbi Ausiliari are only two : Essere & Avere.

    SO WHEN YOU ASK WHETHER:

    Would the translation of "Ti verrà chiesto..." more accurately be "It will come to you to be asked..." ?

    you're actually making a MISTAKE. The verb Venire in Italian is just often wrongly used as "Verbo Ausiliare" in place of Essere.

    I hope this has made things clearer, ciao!
     
  6. legnoduro

    legnoduro Senior Member

    Philadelphia, PA
    United States, English
    Ciao alenaro!
    Thank you for clearing this up for me. Why do I see venire used this way so often? I usually see it used in the newspapers that I read. Is it colloquial?
     
  7. giovannino

    giovannino Senior Member

    Italy
    Italian
    Using "venire" instead of "essere" in the passive (with simple tenses only) is perfectly correct. Actually "venire" can convey a different nuance, as explained by MunchnerFax in this thread. Using "venire" can also be used to avoid ambiguity: "la mostra verrà aperta domani" (the exhibition will be opened tomorrow) vs "la mostra sarà aperta domani" (which could theoretically mean "the exhibition will be opened tomorrow" but would most likely be interpreted as "the exhibition will be open tomorrow").
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2008
  8. alenaro Senior Member

    I'm sorry but I personally can't agree with you giovannino. Admitting that the verb venire is used in place of essere does not turn it into a grammatically correct rule.

    legnoduro you can read the verb venire used in place of essere really often on Italian newspapers and that happens because nowadays everybody speaks that way. So you can definitely talk and write that way! Just remember the two verb in all these cases are used in a totally identical way, though the correct form is essere.

    This is what I've always been studying at school.
     
  9. giovannino

    giovannino Senior Member

    Italy
    Italian
    Well, we must agree to disagree on this:) However I think that if this use of "venire" were incorrect it would be labelled as such in authoritative dictionaries like Devoto Oli but it isn't. Let's hear some more opinions.
     
  10. Necsus

    Necsus Senior Member

    Formello (Rome)
    Italian (Italy)
    I agree with giovannino. The use of venire in the passive construction with simple tenses is absolutely correct from a grammatical point of view, especially to convey the idea of an action (la porta viene chiusa instead of la porta è chiusa).
    Even the verb andare can be used for this purpose, with verbs like perdere and sprecare ('il pacco andò perso/perduto').
     
  11. alenaro Senior Member

    I was specifically talking about the use of that verb as ausiliare. What dictionaries say all around the world is not what Grammar Texts tell, we all should first agree on this.

    On an Italian Dictionary you can also find SCANCELLARE in place of CANCELLARE, but this NEVER will make SCANCELLARE a grammatically correct form! (Well maybe in 100 years, when praxis will become rule).
     
  12. Necsus

    Necsus Senior Member

    Formello (Rome)
    Italian (Italy)
    Sorry, Alenaro, you've expressed your opinion saying
    and for the learners sake I want to clarify that it is grammatically correct instead, and not only in my opinion: the verb venire can be used in place of essere to form the passive. This doesn't mean that venire is another auxiliary verb. From the Dardano & Trifone grammar book [8.8.4] (that is not a dictionary):
    "Nella coniugazione passiva, le voci verbali sono costituite dalle forme dell'ausiliare essere seguite dal participio passato del verbo da coniugare: [...]. Oltre che con l'ausiliare essere, il passivo si può formare con il verbo venire, però esclusivamente nei tempi semplici:
    io vengo lodato = 'io sono lodato'." :)
    Cancellare and scancellare frankly have nothing to do with this matter.
     
  13. alenaro Senior Member

    ok, everybody follow what other people said! It is clear I was wrong.

    But, as you all Italians already did, I said the form is commonly used and it is not mistake to use it. So I never told people they must not use it. My only wrong belief was about its "grammatical existence". Now I know it does exist.

    Please accept my apologies
     
  14. Rivaldo1979 New Member

    Newcastle, GB
    English - Australia
    Hi Legnoduro,

    This is my first post so please go easy one me :)

    As you have posted here I have really struggled with how venire is used instead essere. I have always translated it literally as 'to come' however as you have stated its all over books, newspaper articles, etc.

    Once I read a whole sentence I can understand because I place it in context however I only know this after I've read the whole sentence!

    Anyway, in summary, could you list the name of the thread regarding the 'passive voice' which helped you understand this better. any help would be appreciated.

    grazie per tuo aiuti!
     

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