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To happen = to fall ?

Discussion in 'All Languages' started by ThomasK, Mar 15, 2012.

  1. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    I thought of the word 'uitvallen' in Dutch (fall out, literally), meaning 'to turn out'. as in : 'Het viel nog goed uit' [Things turned out well after all]. --- We can then say: 'Het viel mee/ viel tegen' [Things turned out well/ not well (not as expected)], something like, lit.: 'Things fell along [parallel with the way we expected it, I think/ I interpret]/ fell against).

    Of course that is not so strange: in Latin we have casus (case, geval in Dutch), coincidentia (toe-val in Dutch). My question: do you use something like vallen in such cases ?

    I am not so sure but
    - I think English uses to turn more often (turn out, turn awry/ wrong, ...), in some cases something like to come (outcome, e-vent).
    - In French it might be rouler (se dérouler) [I have no clue whether se passer refers to a movement]
    - In Dutch it might also be lopen, to run(alles liep goed af, things worked out well/ for the better (?))

    I suggest we focus on very common verbs referring to movement, not to the historical verbs except if they refer to some 'basic' movement as well...
     
  2. apmoy70 Senior Member

    Greek
    In Greek:

    In the standard language, to happen is «συμβαίνω» [sim'veno] a Classical Greek verb «συμβαίνω» (sŭm'bænō)--> lit. to be joined to someone, walk with/by him/her metaph. (since Classical times) come to pass, fall out, happen. Compound, prefix and preposition «σὺν» (sūn)--> with, together with (of unknown origin) + verb «βαίνω» (bænō, ['veno] in modern pronunciation), Mycenaean Greek *bamjo --> to walk, step, from PIE base *gwā-, to go, which produces the neuter noun «βῆμα» ('bēmă), Doric «βᾶμα» ('bāmă), Modern Greek «βήμα» ['vima] --> step, pace; similar concept with the Latin "coincidere".
    The thing which happens is either,
    1/ a «συμβάν» (sim'van)--> incident, event; in Modern Greek it's a neuter noun, in Classical Greek «συμβάν» (sūm'bān) was the neuter participle of the 2nd aorist tense of the verb «συμβαίνω» (sŭm'bænō) turned into a stranded noun with identical meaning, or,
    2/ a «γεγονός» (ʝeɣo'nos)--> incident, event; in Modern Greek it's a neuter noun, in Classical Greek «γεγονός» (gĕgŏ'nŏs) was the neuter participle of the past perfect tense of the verb «γίγνομαι» ('gĭgnŏmæ)--> to come into being, turned into a stranded noun.
    Colloquially we say that things «μου γύρισαν ανάποδα» [mu 'ʝirisan a'napoða], something like "things turned upside-down on me", or, «μου πήγαν στραβά» [mu 'piɣan stra'va], something like "things went wrong (lit. crooked) on me".

    PS: In the modern language «συμβάν» carries more of a negative meaning, i.e. an accident is simply a «γεγονός», a tragic accident is more like a «συμβάν».
    Coincidently my deepest condolences to your nation TK, for yesterday's tragic «συμβάν»
     
  3. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Thanks, Apmoy, and indeed, that was the starting-point!!!

    Could you comment on the roots of the words in bold:
    Do you use any of those roots when referring to the economic difficulties Greece is going through ? Do you also consider it a /sunban/ ?
     
  4. apmoy70 Senior Member

    Greek
    «Γύρισαν» ['ʝirisan] is third person pl. aorist tense of the verb «γυρίζω» [ʝi'rizo] lit. "to turn around" (gyros anyone? ;)). It's plural, because things in Greek is a neuter pl. noun.
    «Ανάποδα» [a'napoða] is a Modern Greek adv. which derives from the Byzantine saying «ἀνὰ τὸν πὀδα» (a'na ton 'poða) lit. "up by the foot"; it was a common medieval practice to hang criminals (thieves, killers etc) from the feet with the head downwards «ἀνὰ τὸν πὀδα» so that people could hit/curse/spit on their faces.

    «Πήγαν» ['piɣan] is third person pl. aorist tense of the verb «πάω» (Classical «ὑπάγω»), lit. "to go away, withdraw, retire".
    «Στραβά» [stra'va] is a Modern Greek adv. which derives from the Classical adj. «στρεβλός, -λὴ, -λόν» (strĕ'blŏs m./strĕ'blē f./strĕ'blŏn n.)--> twisted, crooked.

    Actually, no, both «γεγονός» and «συμβάν» are sudden and irrevocable incidents; they happen suddenly, are rare and instantaneous. An incident that is continuous or repeated, becomes a «κατάσταση» [ka'tastasi] (fem. noun) a chronic recurrence/chronic condition.

    It was the first thing that came to my mind, what a tragedy!
     
  5. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Great information, Apmoy, thanks a lot. And I understand there is indeed a difference between an ac-cide-nt and a κατάσταση...
     
  6. sakvaka

    sakvaka Moderoitsija

    Finnish.

    The verb 'happen, occur, take place' is tapahtua (related to tapa, "way of doing"?) or sattua (which also means 'hurt' as in 'It hurts'). As for related words, I recognize the idea of walking/going/moving forward/being in movement:

    Kaikki kävi parhain päin. Everything turned out well. (käydä = (roughly) walk)
    Asiat kulkevat omaa rataansa. The things follow their own course. (= you cannot affect things too much, just as the Earth follows its 'path' through space with little interference; kulkea = (roughly) move, progress forward)

    Could the expressions How's it going? (Miten menee?) and The exam went well. (Koe meni hyvin.) be related, by the way? There's something similar in them, the way I see it. Happening (/result) is connected to moving. Could you use uitvallen to describe an exam?
     
  7. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    That's great information. Lots of movement in events in Finnish!

    Some notes:
    - to do = to happen ? There might be something like that in French: comment ça se fait qu'il y a ... ? [How does it do/ is it done ... ?] - but I am not a native speaker]
    - käydä reminds me of our uitlopen (run > turn out to...), French (se dé-)rouler
    - move: I don't see a link in Dutch
    - go/ men-/ gaan: oh, yes, they are related indeed, or so I think. We have quite the same expressions, and I can recognize them in other IE languages as well
     
  8. mataripis

    mataripis Senior Member

    In Tagalog, 1.)to happen=Mangyari and 2.) it happen to fall= nangyari na malaglag/bumagsak.
     
  9. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    I am afraid (2) is not what I meant. What I meant is: can you use a verb of movement to describe the event of happening, or the outcome ? I suppose not though.
     
  10. tFighterPilot Senior Member

    Israel - Hebrew
    Hebrew: (not common) נפל דבר Nafal davar means "Something has happened". Nafal means "fell".
     
  11. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    That 's very interesting, thanks !
     
  12. mataripis

    mataripis Senior Member

    I see! this should be 1.)May pangyayari and 2.)May kaganapan (they can be used to describe the events taking place)
     
  13. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    So you can use 'kaganapan' for fruit falling from trees then as well ?
     
  14. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    Hungarian:

    megesik - it happens
    meg - perfective prefix
    esik - he/she/it falls

    előfordul - it happens, occurs
    elő - prefix (cca. "fore", "ahead")
    fordul- he/she/it turns

    (the traslations are approximative)

    P.S. The verb menni (to go) can be used in a similar way like in Finnish (post #6), but it expresses rather the way how things happen and not the fact that they happen.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2012
  15. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Very interesting, thanks: so I recognize the use of falling and turning, as in Dutch. Great to discover.
     
  16. rayloom Senior Member

    Paris, France
    Arabic (Hijazi Arabic)
    Arabic also has such a verb. وقع waqa3a, which means either "to fall" or "to happen"
    If you say وقع الشيء, it can mean "something fell" (as in literally fell down) or "something happened".
     
  17. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Great. One more general question: could you imagine using 'turn', or 'come', or other action verbs in order to express, e.g., turning out, ending in, etc. ?
     
  18. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Great. One more general question: could you imagine using 'turn', or 'come', or other action verbs in order to express, e.g., turning out, ending in, etc. ?
     
  19. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    I got some extra information from a lady I met:
    That seems to imply that events in Tagalog do not 'fall', but they might 'be generated' (as in French: ça se produit ???), so it seems...
     
  20. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    Its not unfamiliar in hebrew for come out[=outcome]:
    כך יצא cach yatza - so it has turned out[= it happened to be so; the outcome turned to be thus].
    יצא is used for 'going out/to (of something/place)'
     
  21. aruniyan Senior Member

    Tamil
    in Tamil.


    to happen= to walk = nada
     
  22. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Thanks but could you analyse 'cach yatza' (say what means what)? Thanks !
     
  23. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    כך is so,thus
    יצא is turned out( or exited),
    but when combined they form what i wrote in my earlier post.
     
  24. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    I see. Can you use 'cach' in very literal ways? Could you illustrate that with an example? [Thanks]
     
  25. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    What do you mean very literal ways?
     
  26. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Well, can you say : let's cach [go out] this evening? Or have I understood the meaning wrongly? I am thinking of the literal, non-figurative/ non-metaphorical meanings of cach (if that is the verb)...
     
  27. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    no, cach is 'so/thus'; yatza is the verb 'turned out/exited'.
    cach can also be 'such'.

    בוא נצא הערב bow'u netze ha'erev( lets go out this evening) uses yatza in future form.
    תשים את הדברים כך שיהיה מסודר tasim et hadvarim cach sheyihiye mesudar - put things such that[=in a way that] (everything) will be organized.
    כך עושים זאת cach osim zot thats how you do it.

    כך is a tricky word because its one of the only few words that exist in hebrew and not in english.
     
  28. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    This becomes intriguing. Cach then does not simply mean 'such', I understand. (But maybe we ought to go into this via a PM (personal message) if not so relevant... )
     
  29. arielipi Senior Member

    Israel
    Hebrew
    If this attempt wont provide full explanation then you can pm me,
    cach can be thought of as 'in (a/the) way things are...(verbing).
     
  30. sound shift Senior Member

    Derby (central England)
    English - England
    In English we have "to befall", meaning "to take place", "to happen to", but the house dictionary describes it as "archaic/literary" (and I wouldn't argue with that).
     
  31. Gavril Senior Member

    English, USA
    Welsh digwydd "happen" < di- "from" + cwydd-, as seen in cwyddo "fall, descend".
     
  32. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    Three years later I thought of the idea of (r)evolution, which we translate as ontwikkeling (evol..., de-velopment - so no genuine translation of 'evolution', more like a paraphrase) or omwenteling (round-turning, lit.) . Lat. volvere means 'to turn'...

    The typical word for happening, gebeuren, contains the root 'beur-', which we also have in '(om) beurt', i.e. '(taking) turns','mijn beurt', i.e., 'my turn'.
     
  33. 123xyz Senior Member

    Skopje, Macedonia
    Macedonian
    Macedonian:

    се случува/случи - standard verb for "to happen", with the root "луч-", the meaning of which I'm not familiar with. It's also featured in "одлучува/одлучи", meaning "to decide". In Russian, you also have "получать/получить" (to obtain) and "разлучать/разлучить" (to separate) with the same root. Either way, I'm pretty sure it doesn't have anything to do with falling.
    бидне - а colloquial verb for "to happen", only perfective (though it could have an imperfective form derived from it, namely "биднува", which is rarely used), derived from "биде", the future (also in da-constructions) stem of "сум", namely "to be".
    се дешава/деси - a colloquial verb for "to happen", taken from Serbian; it can't pass in literature, unlike the former; the root's meaning has apparently got something to do with fate, but certainly not with "to fall"

    A verb related to "to happen" with the root meaning "to fall" (пад-):
    спопаѓа/спопадне - to befall, which is evidently equivalent to "to happen to", except that it's transitive rather than intransitive with the dative
     
  34. ThomasK Senior Member

    (near) Kortrijk, Belgium
    Belgium, Dutch
    As for happening and deciding: the caedere in decision reminds me of falling, or of felling (making fall). If you have the same root in the verbs for obtaining and separating, there ought to be some link, but of course there might well have been semantic shifts of all kinds. obtaining and separating might share some feature, viz., their "finality" (it cannot be changed, it is final - in principle).

    (In the meantime I've found a list with the Cyrillic signs, but no word list with some useful words/concepts...)
     
  35. Holger2014 Senior Member

    German
    The Macedonian alphabet has a few extra letters - listed here.
     
  36. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    I didn't think we had this in Portuguese, but I've just remembered the verb calhar, to happen (by chance), or to fit, related to the noun calha, a drainpipe or conduit.
     

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