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To rise

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by Defiance01, Mar 14, 2013.

  1. Defiance01 New Member

    English
    I'm trying to find the Arabic word that is the closest to "rise", as in the verb for "overcome" or "surpass" or "transcend" - similar to the singular form of "Rise" from the film title "The Dark Knight Rises". The automatic translators like Bing and Google are confusing the heck out of me. Any help would be much appreciated!
     
  2. Crimson-Sky

    Crimson-Sky Senior Member

    بلاد بابل - Babylonia
    Arabic-العربية
    The word تجاوز has the meaning of "overcome", "surpass" and "transcend".
     
  3. jack_1313 Senior Member

    English - Australian
    تجاوز can also mean to abuse or go beyond the limits of what is proper (eg "transgress). I'd be weary of that when it comes to using the term in places without clear context.
     
  4. Crimson-Sky

    Crimson-Sky Senior Member

    بلاد بابل - Babylonia
    Arabic-العربية
    There is in fact an expression for "go beyond the limits of what is proper" : تجاوز حدوده. "to abuse" doesn't share anything with تجاوز (v.) (as far as I know anyway) -Do you have an example ?
     
  5. jack_1313 Senior Member

    English - Australian
    Yeah, it's used in the article you've seen me working on at the moment in a few different places. For example, paragraph seven starts with:

    اوضح برادلي انه بعد ان يأس من تنبيه الرأي العام الاميركي عما يجري من تجاوزات في العراق على الصحافة الاميركية ، لجأ الى نشرها في موقع ويكيليكي

    I'm sure I've seen the مصدر used like that quite a few times, but I'm guessing the verb itself, when used as a verb, wouldn't carry that meaning (i.e. the direct object of the verb isn't going to be the victim of the transgression). "Abuse" is probably wasn't the right word because it's quite context-specific.
     
  6. Defiance01 New Member

    English
    But " تجاوز " doesn't actually mean "rise", does it?
     
  7. Crimson-Sky

    Crimson-Sky Senior Member

    بلاد بابل - Babylonia
    Arabic-العربية
    تجاوز in this context is a noun. تجاوز (n.) is a word with a lot of meanings, "violation" is the only meaning (I know of) close to "abuse". That being said, تجاوز (n.) doesn't mean "abuse".

    No it doesn't. "rise (v.)" means ارتفع, عَلاَ, صَعَدَ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2013
  8. Defiance01 New Member

    English
    Hmmm....but what about the words that were originally in my thread title (not sure who changed it):

    نهض and ترتفع (or يرتفع ) ?

    Don't those mean "rise (v.)" in this sense, too?

    Admittedly, I'm obviously in the dark about what difference the positioning of the dots makes (ترتفع vs يرتفع ) :confused:
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2013
  9. jack_1313 Senior Member

    English - Australian
    I'd say there are lots contexts where abuse would be a reasonable rendition of تجاوز (n.) in English. For example, in Arabic can't I say something like تجاوز السلطة? In English we would say "abuse of power." What about تجاوزات الشرطة? Here we say "police abuses." What about تجاوزات حقوق الإنسان? In English it's almost always "human rights abuses."

    On the original topic: do you think some variation of نهض would work in this context, or is it too closely tied to the idea of "rising" out of bed?
    Edit: woops, Defiance posted نهض while I was typing :)
     
  10. Crimson-Sky

    Crimson-Sky Senior Member

    بلاد بابل - Babylonia
    Arabic-العربية
    To some extent, نهض conveys the meaning of "to rise".

    It has something to do with conjugation. The verb is actually "ارتفع".
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2013
  11. Defiance01 New Member

    English
    Ahh, that makes a little sense - if the root form "to rise" is " ارتفع ", I can see how the implied "you" form ("you rise") could be " ترتفع ", which is something all the online translators seem to agree on.

    I really appreciate all the help so far, although I have to admit I'm still somewhat in the dark about the difference between نهض and ترتفع .....
     
  12. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    تغلّب
    فارس الظلام يغلب literally
    نهوض فارس الظلام idiomatically and actually
     
  13. Defiance01 New Member

    English
    Interesting..... " نهوض " seems to be related to " نهض " - I'm guessing the former is the noun and " نهض " is the verb, and the verb is more what I'm looking for....
     
  14. jack_1313 Senior Member

    English - Australian
    Is this single word destined to appear on a body part? ;) If so, we'd better be doubly sure that the connotations are what you are looking for. Here's some of the meanings that I associate with each term, but I'm no substitute for the native speakers here!

    تغلب: overcoming something, triumphing over something, emerging triumphant (no literal upward motion implied)
    نهض: rising up, standing up, geting out of bed. Words from this root are also used in reference to political movements and historical changes, eg نهضة awakening, rising up. عصر النهضة - the Renaissance. نهوض الدولة العثمانية - rise of the Ottoman empire.
    ارتفع: literally moving upwards, becoming higher (eg a number), increasing
    صعد: ascending (eg a set of stairs), climbing, climbing aboard something
    تجاوز: overcoming something, stepping over the boarders, crossing through difficult area or phase, stepping outside boundaries (of what is proper), (no literal upward motion implied)

    I've got a feeling your after something from the نهض root, but some more information could be helpful to make sure you get not just the right word, but the right form of the word. If you ask for just the verb, you're going to get something in the form of "he rose."

    نهوض is one of several verbal nouns ofنهض.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2013
  15. Crimson-Sky

    Crimson-Sky Senior Member

    بلاد بابل - Babylonia
    Arabic-العربية
    several verbal nouns ?
     
  16. Defiance01 New Member

    English
    Ding ding ding! Hence my "measure ten times, cut once" approach :)


    Ahh, now THIS seems like a big help. I am looking for the "command" version of the verb, in present tense, as in telling someone else to rise; and I'm not referring to literal upword motion, but metaphorical - as in, "to overcome".

    So it sounds to me that if the word " تغلب " is ever translated as "rise", then it's exactly what I'm looking for. And it seems like " تجاوز " would be my second-best bet, followed by " نهض ", correct?
     
  17. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    Well, the closest verb to 'rise'/'ascend'/etc. is ارتقى يرتقي.
    This, however, is not the meaning intended in the phrase 'the dark knight rises'.
     
  18. Josh_ Senior Member

    the phrontistery
    U.S., English
    Hi all,

    I'm going to throw another one in the fray: قهر (qahr). I've always liked this word. It means 'overcoming' as in 'conquering' or 'vanquishing.' The Arabic name for Cairo (القاهرة) comes from this root.

    I think it fits nicely with the theme of the movie "The Dark Knight Rises" in which we see the protagonist vanquish his enemies as well as overcome his own personal demons.

    The command form of the verb is اقهر (iqhar).
     
  19. jack_1313 Senior Member

    English - Australian
    As far as I know نهض (nahD) and نهوض are both مصدر of نهض (v.). I was also thinking about نهضة, but I guess that one isn't considered to be a مصدر?

    I don't think "rise" would be a natural translation for قهر, تجاوز or تغلب. All three words could be used to express the idea of overcoming. But تغلب and قهر get this meaning from their connection to the idea of defeating something or someone. تجاوز, on the other hand, gets it from its core meaning of crossing or passing through something. The problem with نهض, on the other hand, is that it captures the idea of actual upward motion as well as rising to prominence, standing up for something, rebelling etc, but doesn't really mean "to overcome and obstacle" - at least I've never seen it used that way.

    That's a really good idea - have you seen this site?
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2013
  20. Crimson-Sky

    Crimson-Sky Senior Member

    بلاد بابل - Babylonia
    Arabic-العربية
    "نهضة" can't be a maSdar...-"نهوض" is a perfect maSdar :).
     
  21. Defiance01 New Member

    English
    I had not, but thanks for the additional warning! :p

    Someone else had mentioned that " قم " might be the most fitting word for what I'm looking for, too....?

    It seems like part of the problem I'm having is that the word "rise" just doesn't have a "phoenix from the ashes" quality in Arabic as it often does in English. It seems I may have to choose between either a word that literally translates as "rise" OR one that means "triumphing", but not both....and if that's the case, I think I would prefer to go with a literal translation for the word "rise" - again, still as a present-tense command with an implied "you" (i.e. "you rise").

    So, after everyone's wonderful advice and suggestions, which I greatly appreciate - it seems I may be back where I started: either " ترتفع " or "نهض " (unless " نهض " is past tense?).......
     
  22. Crimson-Sky

    Crimson-Sky Senior Member

    بلاد بابل - Babylonia
    Arabic-العربية
    "The dark knight rises" means literally : فارس الظلام ينهض. The verbs are ارتفع and نَهَضَ.
     
  23. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    قم means 'get up' in the imperative.
    Also, I don't understand this obsession with tattoos. It seems one of the stupidest thing someone can do to their body.
     
  24. Josh_ Senior Member

    the phrontistery
    U.S., English
    نهضة is an instance noun (اسم مرة); a single occurence of النهض.

    That is true, they don't really lend themselves to a translation of 'rising.'

    I think no matter what you choose you will have to explain to people what it means to you.

    If you want something that naturally translates as "rise!" then you'll have to go with "ارتفع!" or "انهض!", I suppose.

    However, perhaps you could go with a phrase instead. Maybe something like "ارفع نفسك!" (literally: raise yourself (up)!), which, I believe, lends itself to a more metaphorical understanding like the one you're after, not just a literal 'make yourself higher' (in a spatial sense).

    Maybe you could say something like "ارفع نفسك واسمو!."

    Personal opinions notwithstanding, we're here to offer translation help, not pass judgment.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2013
  25. Defiance01 New Member

    English
    Aha! The root " نَهَضَ ", again. This is definitely what I'm leaning toward, now....


    Heh. We're all entitled to our opinions. :)

    Probably true. And " انهض " would be the more appropriate of the two most likely, yes?
     
  26. cherine

    cherine Moderator

    Alexandria, Egypt
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Hi guys,

    I'll keep my personal opinion about tattoos to myself because it is outside the scope of the forum anyway. But allow me a personal advise (or a few):
    1- If you have Egyptian friends or plan to go to Egypt one day, avoid نهض and related word because it has acquired political connotations (related to the rising/renaissance/reform project of the current government مشروع النهضة). So you can become an object of sarcasm from some.
    2- If you don't need to worry about this, then you may to consider that انهض can be understood as "get up" (from a fall). Maybe this is close to what you're looking for.
    3- ارتفع = rise up. It's good. But it wouldn't be associated to the dark night or the phoenix.
    4- The verbs تغلب، اقهر، اهزم، انتصر are all about overcoming or conquering an enemy (within or without, material or moral). Just in case you feel like considering one of them.
     
  27. jack_1313 Senior Member

    English - Australian
    That's a really good point!
     
  28. Defiance01 New Member

    English
    Well, even though I may visit Egypt at some point, I can just wear a t-shirt that covers the tattoo up :p

    But I think " انهض " seems to be the closest thing to what I'm looking for, as the translation for "rise up" in this sense.

    Many thanks for all the help, everyone!!
     
  29. jack_1313 Senior Member

    English - Australian
    Hi Defiance, glad you found something appropriate.

    One final word of input - if you go to the end of the page that I linked you to earlier, you can see the difference between "Times New Roman / Ariel" type writing and actual stylistic calligraphy. I'd encourage you to find a calligrapher to come up with a design for your tattoo - it will look ten times nicer :) If you do that, just make sure that they understand that the word is اِنهض, the imperative of نهض, and not أنهض, which means "he incited ..." or "he made ... rise". In practice, both words can be written as انهض, but the inclusion of diacritical marks would distinguish them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  30. Defiance01 New Member

    English
    Hello all - a few months ago, I posted on here asking about the word "rise" in Arabic. My understanding from that thread was that "ارتفع" and "انهض" both mean "rise", but the first one implies literal upward motion and the second implies waking from sleep, or (loosely) overcoming hardship.

    So even though it's been a few months, I have a couple follow-up questions:

    1) Am I correct in understanding the difference between "ارتفع" and "انهض" ?

    2) Could someone explain the difference between the following variations on "انهض":

    انهض
    ينهض
    الانتفاض
    إنهض
    اِنهض

    Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  31. jack_1313 Senior Member

    English - Australian
     
  32. Defiance01 New Member

    English
    Thanks! That's pretty much exactly what I was hoping for, on part (2) :)
     

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