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To say

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by paieye, Dec 4, 2012.

  1. paieye Senior Member

    England
    English - British
    I am trying to construct in Arabic a sentence starting "She telephoned to say that..." The word for "to say" that has been suggested to me is "لِتَقَوَل." Is that the correct usage, and, if so what part of speech is that word ? Is it "لِ" followed by a verbal noun, or is it something else ?
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
  2. ayed Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic
    هاتفت(اتصلت) لتقول إن
    هاتفت(اتصلت) قائلة إن
    I hope I haven't mixed : she telephoned to say that # she telephoned saying that
     
  3. paieye Senior Member

    England
    English - British
    Thank you, but what part of speech is the suggested word ?
     
  4. ayed Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic
    present tense preceded by Lam
     
  5. paieye Senior Member

    England
    English - British
    But what is the function of the Lam ?
     
  6. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Ayed’s answer is correct. Let me just fill in the grammar:

    li taqūla “in order that she might say” (conjunction li + subjunctive)

    qāʼilatan “saying” is what in Arabic is called a ḥāl; that is why it is in the accusative.

    My question is: does anyone actually use hātafa as a verb? I have seen it written but have never heard anyone say it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
  7. economistegypt2010

    economistegypt2010 Senior Member

    Egypt, مصر
    Arabic, العربية
    I can say it in another way as the following:

    اتصلت بي تليفونياً حتي تقول
    اتصلت بي تليفونياً كي تقول
     
  8. paieye Senior Member

    England
    English - British
    Thank you, but:

    1. I thought that the subjunctive construction in Arabic for this would be "she telephoned" (indicative) ان "she might say" (subjunctive).

    2. Is the full hal construction in effect "she telephoned لِ the saying" ?

    3. I am longing to know what is the best way of saying "she telephoned." The Arabic form that has been suggested to me is خابرَت -- is that acceptable ?
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
  9. economistegypt2010

    economistegypt2010 Senior Member

    Egypt, مصر
    Arabic, العربية
    Hi Paieye :)
    It can be used but not in most of Arab countries. I found it extremely used among Iraqi people. In Egypt and most of Arab countries we can say any one of the following:
    اتصل هاتفياً
    اتصل
    هاتف
     
  10. paieye Senior Member

    England
    English - British
    Thank you, EE, and you will not be surprised to hear that it was suggested to me by my very helpful Iraqi daughter-in-law !
     
  11. dkarjala Senior Member

    English - America
    .

    It's true that the subjunctive with أن often has the force of the verbal noun "to say"; however, this 'to say' is NOT merely the infinitive but is a phrase of purpose meaning "in order to say". If a phrase in English has "to ____" check if you can add "in order" without changing the meaning; if so, you should use a particle like لـ ، حتى، كي، لكي in addition to the subjunctive.

    It's just the 'saying' part and this saying is not really different from English "He spoke unto them, saying ...", but it must be accusative in Arabic since it's functioning as a sort of adverb modifying 'called', i.e. answering the question "in what manner did she call?".
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  12. Tensor78 Senior Member

    U.S. English
    I love Arabic. There's always 5 ways to say the same thing!

    This is informative. However, to express the idea of purpose here in his sentence i.e. the "to say" part we could also use "li" + the verbal noun or just the verbal noun in the indefinite accusative, correct?

    Further, regarding the hal, we can replace the accusative hal with the imperfect indicative, yes?

    Lastly, I have seen the indefinite accusative verbal noun used as a third type of hal. Is this last usage common?

    Thanks for your help.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  13. Tensor78 Senior Member

    U.S. English
    I'm still inexperienced, but in my layman's experience, "an" is used when the first verb is one of request, demand, wish, or possibly emotion.

    For example, if you were to say: I want you to...., I need you to...., I wish you would......, I like to......, etc. then you would use the conjunction "an" to link the two verbs, the second being in the subjunctive of course. I think that "an" might best be translated as "that".

    I'm new though. So, don't take this as the final word.
     
  14. paieye Senior Member

    England
    English - British
    Thank you all.
     
  15. barkoosh Senior Member

    Beirut
    Arabic
    To convey the idea of purpose (that is, "in order to"), "li" is used with the imperfect verb, moving it from the indicative to the accusative (since "li" is أداة نصب). "li" here can be replaced with "kai كي", "likai لكي" and even "Hattaa حتّى" sometimes.

    Also, "li" can be added to a verbal noun when expressing the idea of purpose. It then can be replace with "li'ajli لأجل" or "min ajli من أجل". In that case, the verbal noun will be in the genitive (since it's a noun and "li" is حرف جرّ).

    Please note that the element of awkwardness should be taken into consideration. For example, while you can correctly say:
    اتّصَلَتْ/هَاتَفَتْ/تَلْفَنَت لِلْقَوْلِ إِنَّهَا لَنْ تَأْتِيَ (she called [in order] to say that she won't be coming)
    You'll find that it's more common to say:
    اتّصَلَتْ/هَاتَفَتْ/تَلْفَنَت لِتَقُولَ إِنَّهَا لَنْ تَأْتِيَ
    While a hal is generally a noun in the accusative, a phrase could also take the function of a hal. And a phrase could have a verb (such as "وهو يضحك" in جَاءَ وَهُوَ يَضْحَكُ, and sometimes nothing but a verb, as "يضحك" in جَاءَ يَضْحَكُ, where the phrase of يضحك/وهو يضحك acts as a hal since it describes the state of his coming); and it could be without a verb (جَاءَ وَيَدُهُ عَلَى رَأْسِهِ "he came with his hand on his head").

    The hal is a very complicated thing :)
    See here
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  16. Tensor78 Senior Member

    U.S. English
    Thanks. But, I assume that you mean "subjunctive" here.

    Cool. I thought as much. However, what does "ajli" mean exactly? I have never seen this word before.

    So, the subjunctive is more common in these situations than the verbal noun? Duly noted. However, what about just using the verbal noun by itself without a "li" before hand? Can that be used as well to denote purpose?

    As I suspected. Thanks.

    I gave the thread a quick perusal. Apparently, the answer to my last question is yes. The verbal noun can be used in the accusative indefinite to denote Hal.

    Thanks!
     
  17. barkoosh Senior Member

    Beirut
    Arabic
    So the منصوب is called "accusative" with nouns and "subjunctive" with verbs? No wonder we have trouble understanding those translated terms! :)
    I've never seen "ajl" used without "min" or "li". "min ajli" and "li ajli" mean "for", "for the sake of"...
    There are no hard and fast rules about this. Just the common usage. People would still understand you if you say اتّصلت للقول.
    No, "li" is a must.
    Yes in modern Arabic.

    You're welcome.
     

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