Translation of an Ottoman inscript of a mosque

Discussion in 'Türkçe (Turkish)' started by thessnik, Feb 21, 2013.

  1. thessnik New Member

    Who could translate the Ottoman inscript of a mosque built in 1903 in Thessaloniki /Greece, in a military camp (Popcu Kislasi)?
     
  2. SARI7

    SARI7 Junior Member

    GREAT BRITAIN
    Turkish
    I can have a look at it
     
  3. thessnik New Member

  4. SARI7

    SARI7 Junior Member

    GREAT BRITAIN
    Turkish
    The resolution is too low for me I'm afraid. If you can send another with higher resolution I can get help from father who can understand the most complex ones even if they were Arabic.
     
  5. thessnik New Member

    Thanks, I will try to take a more accurate picture and send you.
     
  6. SARI7

    SARI7 Junior Member

    GREAT BRITAIN
    Turkish
    ok. thanks
     
  7. thessnik New Member

    Dear Sari,
    I apologize for my delay, but it happens because in the meantime the inscription has been cleaned.
    Please kindly find attached a picture of the inscripr, much accurate than the previous onw.
    My best thanks to your father he would like to read the inscription.
    Best regards,
    Nikos
    <Email address deleted.>
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
  8. SARI7

    SARI7 Junior Member

    GREAT BRITAIN
    Turkish
    Dear thessnik;
    I had them shown to my father. He could not read them due to size of the pictures. They were sharp, but rather small still nevertheless i am afraid.
    Only with the last picture was legible by comparison. It says on the left hand size above the date : be prepared for the prayer.
    If we could get normal size pictures (I mean in MBs) it'd be possible to solve it further. It is especially important since some parts of it deleted or harmed.
    Thanks
     
  9. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    I can read most of it, but since I don't know Turkish I can't understand it well. However, most of the words have Arabic and Persian roots. You'd better find a bilingual Persian-Turkish person. Here is what I captured from the text*:

    حسن فهمی عالی منقبت والی والا شان / مریدر (؟) وجودی پاک انواع مزیت له
    hosn (e) fahmi 3āli manqebat vāli vālā sha'n / MRYDR vojudi pāk anvā3 maziyat LH
    LIT. TRANS: good understanding, excellent skill, ? high rank, ??? clean being, all sort of qualities has(?)
    جلیله (؟) فریده خانمک تذکیر نامچون (؟) / بو جامع شریفی یاپدی ابراز حمیت له
    jalilH faridH khānMK tazkiir NAMCVN / bu jāme3 sharifi YAPDI ebrāz hamiyat LH
    دعای خیر در مقصد شهنشاه جهاشاه / نونی(؟) تقدیر ایدن اول ذات عالیدور ؟؟؟ له
    do3āy (e) kheyr dar maqsad shahanshāh jahānshah / NVNY taqdir AIDN (idan?) avval zāt 3āli-dor LH
    منار نده لوال (لوان) احمدی بش قف؟؟؟؟قچه / یازلسون طاق عرشه همتی مست(؟) مشیت له
    MNAR NDH LVAL ahmadi besh QF????QCH / YAZLSVN tāq 3arsheh hemmati MST(?) mashiyat LH
    ایشیندم قدسیاندن جوهر تاریخی (؟) مکی / نمازه حاضر اول بو معبد اسلامه نیت له
    ishindam qodsiyāndan tārikhi / namāzH hāzer avval bu ma3bad niyat LH

    * 3 = Arabic ع (ayn). ā = long a (alef). a = [æ]. i = long "i". h as in English. kh = h in Turkish /x/. C = English ch. '
    Capital letter mean that I can read but I can't understand (prob. Turkish). Capital V = u or v.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2013
  10. jcpjcp Senior Member

    Turkish/Turkic
    the resolution is too low. you should retake the photo of the inscript with a higher resolution.
     
  11. thessnik New Member

    View attachment 12015
     
  12. thessnik New Member

    View attachment 12016
     
  13. sb70012

    sb70012 Senior Member

    Azerbaijani
    Hello dear Thessnik,

    I know Turkish and Azeri,

    It's something like a poem than a prose. This picture is with a great resolution.
    If you take some pistures of the other lines then I'll be able to translate them to
    you. (Just please take clear photo)

    The line: حسن فهمی عالی منقبت والی والا شان

    Means:

    Hasan Fahmi, a high knowledgeable person (very literate), a high respectful person (gentleman)

    Please provide us some more pictures of other lines. This picture you have provided was excellent.

    عالی منقبت = having good skills at art and literature
    والا شان = a high respectful person (gentleman)
    حسن فهمی = Hasan Fahmi (name of an imortan person in ancient times)
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2013
  14. thessnik New Member

    thanks a lot!
    I don't know what I am doing wrong, perhaps the files are too big? I am not able to send more pictures. Could you propose a solution, how I could send you more pictures?
    I am sending you instead what an other persian friend has read:

    حسن فهمی عالی منقبت والی والا شان / مریدر (؟) وجودی پاک انواع مزیت له
    جلیله (؟) فریده خانمک تذکیر نامچون (؟) / بو جامع شریفی یاپدی ابراز حمیت له
    دعای خیر در مقصد شهنشاه جهاشاه / نونی(؟) تقدیر ایدن اول ذات عالیدور ؟؟؟ له
    منار نده لوال (لوان) احمدی بش قف؟؟؟؟قچه / یازلسون طاق عرشه همتی مست(؟) مشیت له
    ایشیندم قدسیاندن جوهر تاریخی (؟) مکی / نمازه حاضر اول بو معبد اسلامه نیت له



     
  15. thessnik New Member

  16. thessnik New Member

  17. sb70012

    sb70012 Senior Member

    Azerbaijani
    Now I can read them pretty well. It's an Azeri poem not a Turkish. It's really an interesting poem. It's talking about a brave man and admiring God.

    Your second picture is:

    (He is) source of excellences, different kinds of excellences =مزیتدر وجودی انواع مزیتله


    مزیتدر = excellences
    مزیتله = excellent
    وجودی = existence
    انواع = kinds of (typs of)

    ****************************************************

    Your third picture is:

    His wife's name is Farideh, (who is) gentlewoman. His braveness (virility) is excellent and peerless =

    حلیله سی فریده خانمک، تذکیر ناهمچون

    حلیله سی =
    His wife
    فریده = Farideh (Name of his wife)
    خانمک =
    gentlewoman
    تذکیر = braveness and virility
    ناهمچون = excellent and peerless

    ************************************************
    Your fourth picture is:

    بو جامع شریفی یاپدی ابراز حمیتله = This respectful person expressed (his) generosity

    بو = this
    جامع شریفی = respectful person
    یاپدی = expressed (did)
    ابراز = showing
    حمیتله = generosities

    *****************************************
    Your fifth picture is:

    دعای خیر در مقصد شهنشاه جهانبانه =
    Good (kind) prayer (towards human) being reached to destination (done) by the king, God (guard of the world)

    دعای خیر = good (kind) prayer
    در مقصد = being reached to destination (done)
    شهنشاه = the king
    جهانبانه = God (guard of the worl)

    **********************************************

    Your seventh picture is:

    ایشیتدم قدسیاندن جوهر تاریخی نکی = I heard of angels what the ink of (heart of) history was

    ایشیتدم = I heard
    قدسیان = angels
    جوهر = ink (sometimes it refers to heart of something)
    تاریخی = history
    نکی = what was

    ******************************************
    Your eighth picture is:

    یازلسون طاق عرشه همتی دست مشیتله =
    Let God's volitions (God's power and will) be written on top of the heaven arch.

    یازلسون = let it be written
    طاق = arch
    عرش = heaven
    همتی دست مشیتله = God's volitions (God's power and will)

    ********************************************

    This is your tenth picture:

    نمازه حاضر اول وقت بو معبد اسلامه نیتله =
    While saying prayer on time in an islamic mosque, try to make some intentions (ask of God whatever you want)

    نمازه = while saying prayer
    حاضر = present
    اول وقت = on time
    بو = in
    معبد = mosque
    اسلامه = islamic
    نیتله = make some intentions (ask of God whatever you want)

    It is a really interesting but complicated poem because the Azeri words written in the poem are not used any more these days. I myself rarely use those words. If you use them differently, they can have different meanings, that's why we don't talk like that.

    I hope that helps.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  18. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    The inscription is about Hasan Fehmi Paşa who was an inspector governor in late 1800s and early 1900s. His wife, [Zeynep] Faride Hanim is also mentioned. I guess this should be a mosque (Kamal Paşa Mosque?) which they funded to repair in 1902
     
  19. sb70012

    sb70012 Senior Member

    Azerbaijani
    :thumbsup:
     
  20. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    The current distinction between Azeri and Turkish, I suppose, is post-Republic and post-Pahlavi, when strict socio-political borders were placed and both countries underwent social reforms. Therefore, this poem is still Turkish.

    Anyway, the last word in the verse above seems to be نامیچون not ناهمچون.
     
  21. thessnik New Member

    thanks a lot, it was wery helpful! Actually, now the whole inscript has been read. The inscript is in a mosque in Thessaloniki / Greece, I suggest, now we can give her a name, the one of the Vali, Hassan Fahmi Pasha, in Sha'ban 1321 (Egira).
    I have some difficulties to send you more pics.

    Thanks again.
     
  22. thessnik New Member

    thanks a lot, for your contribution.
    All the best,
    N.
     
  23. thessnik New Member

    View attachment 12073
    Again, thanks a lot to all who have contributed for the translation !!
    (attached the whole inscript)
    (my knowledge is small, so I am not able to send this message to all who have participated)
     
  24. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    That's awesome! So, it is Oct-Dec 1903. By the way, where did you get Sha'ban?
     
  25. sb70012

    sb70012 Senior Member

    Azerbaijani
    Thessnik, just don't forget and be careful that the last word in your third picture is (نامیچون) not ناهمچون

    ناهمچون = excellent and peerless

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    نامیچون = like the excellent one (this is the correct one)
    نامی = Top
    چون = such as (like)
     
  26. thessnik New Member

    Yes, it is 1903. But, to be sure that it is not 1904 (because the islomic calendar don't suit with the Georgian one = 356 days), we have to know the month:
    http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~gent0113/islam/islam_tabcal_converter.htm#top
    View attachment 12102
    A Senegalian friend said me this was Sha'ban, but after my question, where exactly it was written, he said, No, this is not Sha'ban, BUT satahne = year. It is down the date (1321).
     
  27. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    Yes, It is sinna[h,t] (=year).
     
  28. thessnik New Member

    Hi, could you kindly explane me why you are writting [Zeynep] before the name Faride? ( I have found, "Faride" means Unique. "Zeynep"= precious jouvel).
     
  29. sb70012

    sb70012 Senior Member

    Azerbaijani
    Hi,

    I think your question should be posted in a seperate thread. Titles should fiffer.
     
  30. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    Zeynep is actually a part of her full name that is Zeynep Faride Hanim (the "Hanim" may be a title meaning "lady", not necessarily part of her name). In this script, Zeynep is excluded probably due to either cultural issues or maintaining the poem's rhythm.
     
  31. thessnik New Member

    and the last part of the inscription, the trird line (right part and left part). It would be very nice if you, sb70012 and Treaty, could do it. See attached. Thanks a lot, in advance. 3rd LEFT - 6b.jpg 3rd RIGΗT - 5b.jpg
     
  32. ecdadihifzeylerdi Junior Member

    Turkish
    I cannot read the left one, the right one seems to be:

    Duamız der maksad-ı (maksat) şahenşah-i cihan-bâne (or cihan-bân).

    Our prayer is intended for the Shahensah (Shah of the shahs) of the world's guard (God).
     
  33. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    The first words are du3aa-ye khayr دعای خیر (~ good/benevolent prayer).

    The other is made of following words:
    بونی bvny (?)
    تقدیر takdir (fate, destiny)
    ایدن idin (provide ?)
    ذات zat (nature, essence)
    عالیدر ali-der (that is high ?)
    رویت ro'yet (vision) I'm not sure of this. This is very tricky. What I can read is rryt or rrty with an "a" sign on the second r. However, the second r has a pale trace of v circle on its head that made me think it was rvyt and the "a" sign is ' (hamza) which we can combine to ro'yt (vision, seeing).
    له leh (with?)
     
  34. thessnik New Member

    thanks a lot, Thread, now only the left part is unknown.
     
  35. thessnik New Member

    thanks a lot, ecdadihfxeylerdi.
     

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