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Tufan, tuf-, typhon

Discussion in 'Etymology, History of languages and Linguistics (EHL)' started by Treaty, Jun 14, 2013.

  1. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    The Persian verb tûfīdan means to roar, make loud noise or turmoil (turbulence: cognate?), of which we can make its subjective form tûfān, cf. bārān (rain/raining) from bārīdan (to rain). The Greek typhon connotes storm. In addition, Arabic ṭûfān (borrowed by or from? Persian) also means storm. Is there any relationship between them ?
     
  2. asanga Junior Member

    Indonesian
    According to Beekes, τυφῶν comes from PIE *dʰuh₂ "to smoke", also source of NP دود. Latin turbō v. "to disturb, unsettle" n. "whirlwind" is problematic; de Haan can only suggest that it and Attic Τύρβη "noise, commotion" are both borrowings from some unknown source.

    The NP verb is probably descended from proto-Ir. *staub/f- "to make noise". Cheung says "it is very much doubtful whether this apparently IIr. root has IE cognates: it is perhaps a blend of the ‘praise’ (*stau) and ‘utter’ (*uab/f) roots." Mayrhofer says the Sanskrit cognate stubh- is a "Wurzelerweiterung von stu-" (expansion of the root stu-).

    Arabic طُوفَان seems to derive from a genuine Semetic root Ṭ-W-F "to surround, envelop", Zammit's Comparative Lexical Study of Qur'anic Arabic lists Epigraphic South Arabian ṭwˤ as a cognate.
     
  3. Treaty Senior Member

    Australia
    Persian
    Thank you.

    Is there enough resources to understand if Arabic طوفان was a common word for storm before Islam? Or was it name for the Noah's storm/flood?
     
  4. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Arabic ṭūfān is doubtless borrowed from Aramaic ṭāwpānā “flood”, and especially “Noah’s flood”. South Arabian ṭ-w-ʻ means “obey” (Arabic ʼaṭāʻa) and has nothing to do with this. The Aramaic verb ṭ-w-p means “swim, set sail, flood, be flooded” etc., but lacks convincing cognates outside of Aramaic (and Arabic loan words), so I would say that some connection with τυφῶν is not out of the question.
     
  5. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    Tofan(a) is strong rain also in Aramaic, see the Unqelos translation the Flood in Genesis 6:17. IDK the order of possible borrowing among Aramaic, Arabic, Persian.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2013
  6. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    Hebrew צ-ו-פ tz-w-p = float, with the regular shift t -> tz between the two languages, is a cognate, I guess.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2013
  7. asanga Junior Member

    Indonesian
    My apologies, the tables in the Lexical Stduy were spread over 2 pages, & in haste I read from the wrong column. Zammit gives the following cognate radicals:

    Syr. ṭāp
    Aram. ṭūp
    Heb. ṭwp, ṣūp
    Akk. ṭāpu
     
  8. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Zammit’s book is not a reliable source for Semitic matters. To start with: “Syriac” and “Aramaic” are the same thing, or rather Syriac is one particular form of Aramaic.

    Hebrew /ṣ/ צ can correspond to Aramaic /ṭ/ if both go back to Semitic *ẓ (Arabic ظ), but it cannot correspond to Akkadian /ṭ/. So there is definitely some borrowing going on.
     
  9. origumi Senior Member

    Hebrew
    If borrowing, it must have hppened in an early period. Root tz-w-p appears several times in the Bible (Deuteronomy, Kings, Lamentations), most likely before any significant Greek or Persian influence on the Levant.

    Strong's: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H6687
     
  10. asanga Junior Member

    Indonesian
    That's disappointing to hear. Is there any good reference work for Arabic etymology in any language?
     
  11. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Not really, but (since we both like old books) you could start with the index to Brockelmann's Grundriss.
     

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