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unmittelbar aufdrängenden [naiven Realismus]

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by Löwenfrau, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Hello!

    I'm not sure as to the meaning of this junction of words (bold blue):


    "Die Alten und die Scholastiker, wenn man von den griechischen Skeptikern und von den mittelalterlichen Nominalisten absieht, behandelten die Frage nach der Realität der Dinge – man achte auf die Tautologie – in einer Disziplin, welche nacheinander die Namen: erste Philosophie, Metaphysik, Ontologie bekam. Man flüchtete vor dem sich unmittelbar aufdrängenden naiven Realismus in die ideale Welt, in einen Ideal -Realismus hinein und war noch nicht imstande, zwischen Objektivität und Subjektivität, zwischen Wirklichkeit und Scheinbarkeit der Gedankendinge zu unterscheiden." (Mauthner)

    Does he mean something like "They scaped from the naif realism, which imposed itself immediately / which was naturally hegemonic (?), in the ideal world..." , or "They scaped from the self-imposing naif realism (?) in the ideal world..."

    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. dubitans Senior Member

    Vienna, Austria
    German - Austria
    which evidently suggested itself
     
  3. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Ok, ok... But... it suggested itself in an evident way, or it was evident that it suggested itself? I believe it's the first option, but I'm not sure.
    If it is the first option, I'd still like to understand it more deeply:

    "which evidently suggested itself" means that, at that time, the naif realism was the regular way by which people in general used to perceived the world? Was it the regular way by which, further, philosophers engaged to understand/explain the world? Or does the author mean something else?
     
  4. bearded man

    bearded man Senior Member

    Milan
    Italian
    It seems to me that some of your initial translations are correctly interpreting the text. I would say 'a naif realism, immediate and self-imposing' (naif as from children who accept reality as it is immediately imposing itself to them).
     
  5. manfy Senior Member

    Singapore
    German - Austria
    I agree.
    There's just one problem: 'unmittelbar' has 2 different core meanings, 'directly' and 'immediately/imminently'. And in this case the first one makes more sense.
    "They escaped from the (directly) self-imposing naive realism into the ideal world..."

    In English the word 'directly' is not necessary here, whereas in German 'unmittelbar' is important. I think the idea behind it is that naive realism is self-explanatory/self-imposing, but all the other philosophies needed lots of explanations and interpretations...and therefore lots of philosophers!
    Hence, philosophy (as an industry) tried to get away from any self-created, thus uncontrollable philosophy!
     
  6. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Now the word "tacit" just crossed my mind as an equivalent for much of the intended meaning:
    "They escaped from the tacitly self-imposing naive realism into the ideal world...", or "They escaped from the tacit self-imposing naive realism into the ideal world..."

    But perhaps "tacit" functions as a synomym for "self-imposing", so that it would be better to choose one of them.

    Anyway, I have to choose what sounds better in Portuguese, which is so far, in English (literally):
    "They escaped from the naive realism, which imposed itself in an immediate, tacit way, into the ideal world..."
     
  7. manfy Senior Member

    Singapore
    German - Austria
    Well, I can only speak for the English version. And there, 'tacitly' is not necessary - but if you use it, it does not dramatically change the overall meaning of the sentence.

    "sich aufdrängen" means 'to impose onself [on somebody]'
    "sich unmittelbar aufdrängen" -> if the context allows a temporal meaning of 'unmittelbar', then I'd go in the direction of 'to imminently impose oneself'. But your sentence does not convey that temporal sense, so:
    "self-imposing realism" sounds very good for "der sich unmittelbar aufdrängende Realismus" (i.e., something that imposes itself on you [without the help of any third party that's trying to talk you into it])
     
  8. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    :thumbsup:

    P.S.: This "without the help of any third party that's trying to talk you into it" is precisely what I'm emphasizing with (Portuguese) "tacit".
     

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