Urdu: طلبیدن

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Alfaaz, Feb 11, 2012.

  1. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    Background: Online Urdu Dictionary Word of the Day: طلبیدن

    Question: How would this be used in a sentence? Is it a noun or a verb (the definition given is خواہش کرنا/khaahish karnaa which makes it sounds like a verb...but it is listed as an ism)?

    Attempts:
    Kulfi par nazar paRte hi usne kulfi khane ki talbiidan (instead of khaahish ki)...
    Insaan ko khaab dekhne chaahiyeN aur talbiidan chahiye! Issi se to zindagi ka ihsaas hota hai! (instead of kaahish karnaa)

    The "shortage" of verbs in Urdu/Hindi and "abundance" of nouns/adjectives has been discussed previously and this query seems to be related to that...
     
  2. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    Your query is in the same vein as lafz_puchnevala when he was enquiring about "fareftan". talabiidan is a Persian verb and it is NOT used in this form. talab karnaa/bujhaanaa/talabii honaa yes but not talabiidan.

    A little bit of useless information for you. talabiidan is one of few verbs in the Persian language that are generated from Arabic nouns. Another one is raqsiidan, no prizes for guessing its root! (cf. Urdu garmaanaa, sharmaanaa etc, based on Persian).

    If you search under the ending -na in Platts, you will be astonished to see that there are many many verbs which are no longer used in Urdu/Hindi. As you have indicated a lot of them have become "nominal", e.g koshish karnaa, naaraaz honaa, qarz lenaa and so on and so forth.
     
  3. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    Thanks for the interesting reply! Just a quick question, if you don't mind: if this is not used in Urdu, why is it included in the dictionary...?
     
  4. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Could you please provide a reference.
     
  5. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    The only reference is the online dictionary right now...(link given above)
     
  6. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Well, I have failed my "obsevation skills" test!:) It is still early in the morning. It can only get better!

    I can't really think of a logical reason for its inclusion. I've just looked in a "Classical" Urdu dictionary and "talabiidan" is not listed there. Besides, talabiidan is not Arabic as the dictionary indicates; talab is for sure. Don't believe everything you read, including what I am writing!!
     
  7. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    :); Asked this question because often in "high register" Urdu and especially poetry, Arabic and Persian words are included/used as in the original languages or Urdu-ized...(there was a discussion about this on PTV a while back, where modern/young poets participated: some prefer using very simple language while others enjoy employing words that might not be known to general public (or might not even be Urdu words) like awaail...)

    So maybe طلبیدن could also be used in Urdu...
     
  8. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    avaa'il is definitely part of the Urdu language. "avaa'i-i-3umr" (childhood), "biisviiN sadii 3iisavii ke avaa'il meN" (In the early part of the 20th century of the Christian era).
     
  9. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    Certainly not denying that, just providing an example of how words might be used in some cases/settings that common people (like an engineer or gol-guppe wala) might not use in day to day conversations...so could talabiidan be one of those words-perhaps used in formal documents/poetry...
    ...and even if it isn't, could it be used/"coined" if one doesn't want to use _______ karna (needs a single word)...?
     
  10. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I don't think so but I will stand corrected if I am wrong.
     
  11. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Just to add some more here. This is indeed like fareftan / fariiftan we discussed in that thread and my argument is the same here as it was there. To my knowledge, and like fareftan, Talbiidan was never part of the Urdu lexicon. Its inclusion here is odd but we can look up the older, "classical" Urdu lexicons just to be sure. I somehow doubt we'll find it used as such since the -an suffix is typical of the Persian infinitive, just as the -naa infnitive is for us.

    So for your above sentence we can have: qulfii par naZar paRte hii usne qulfi khaane kii Talab kii / xaahish kii /xwaahish kii

    .... and I wouldn't say we have a "shortage " of verbs. We use a lot of compound verbs just like in Modern Persian, where a lot of the earlier simple verbs have been set aside for the their compound forms.
     
  12. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Let me repeat what others have said: it is not Urdu, it has never been Urdu and I don't think it can ever become a part of this language.

    Let me repeat what Qureshpor SaaHib has said: do consult word-listing sites like the one you passionately do but keep in mind that the traditional dictionaries are qualitative. Ultimately, we are here to help you interpreting the right meanings and usage, but I think posting hundreds of words that are very remotely associated with a given meaning misses the point.

    It is very good you posted this particular query because it gives a chance to look at the quality of this source. As you aptly pointed out, it is a verb but is listed as a noun, and of course, it is not Urdu!
     
  13. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    avaa'il is perfectly Urdu and I believe it is known to ''general public'' of course if they speak Urdu :).

    رواں ماہ کے اوائل میں - in the first days of the current month.

    طلبیدن on the contrary, can not be used in Urdu simply because Urdu doesn't borrow Persian infinitives, as far as I know. I think this verb is not used in Persian, though.
     
  14. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    Thanks for replying everyone!
    So we have to use ______ kii, ________ karna, ________ kardi, etc. With the comment about "shortage" of verbs, I was merely summarizing what was discussed in a couple of threads a long time ago: that we have to say talaash karna, and not just talaashna, whereas English allows greater flexibility, and very few words are left such as bhagnaa (as QP pointed out above: Platts) etc. etc. (can't find the thread, but it was something comparing English and Urdu...);

    Again, that was one of the reasons of asking the question. It was surprising to find such a word in the dictionary (which might be wrong, as it often has many mistakes), that would stand alone and not require noun+karnaa...

    Thanks! The point has set in now...
    Sure I will try to keep consulting them for help whenever needed; I am not the creator of the site, nor affiliated to it in any way-it is a generally useful online resource and reference for Urdu to Urdu, just as Oxford's or Webster's have become for English; certainly have that and will keep it in mind; I understand and appreciate this! I shall try to refrain from posting such questions in the future if they are pointless...

    Thanks, as I have said above that the source has many mistakes, but is a good reference for now (comparing it to other online Urdu dictionaries, it seems to be more comprehensive, in addition to Platts and a few others of course...)

    Again, not denying that the word is Urdu...
    اس سوال پوچھنے کا مقصد ہرگز کسی کی دل آزاری کرنا، اردو کی توہین و تبدیلی، یا پھر بےمعنی ، فضول گفتگو کرنا نہیں تھا! اگر یہ محسوس ہوا ہو، تو اسکے لئے معذرت خان ہیں! خدا اور اسکی مخلوق معاف فرماے اگر کوئی گناہ ہوگیا ہو
    The purpose of posting this question was certainly not to hurt anyone's feelings, try to disrespect or transform Urdu, or just to post a thread with meaningless, futile discussion/debate. If any of the aforementioned have been felt, then am apologetic. May the Almighty and his creation grant forgiveness if any sin has been committed!

    Please excuse any spelling/grammatical mistakes!
     
  15. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Alfaaz SaaHib. Please keep firing your questions. No one has any problem with this. The dictionary that you have been quoting from is possibly one of the best and as you have indicated much more up to date. If it has one or two errors, that is no big deal.

    We are all learning from each other. It is a pleasure becoming acquainted with so many learned people on this forum.
     
  16. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I agree, we are learning from each other and it is a pleasure indeed to have such enlightening discussions here!
     
  17. eskandar

    eskandar Moderator

    English (US)
    Not so; طلبیدن is still frequently used in contemporary Iranian Persian, formally as well as colloquially.
     
  18. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Here is a thread entitled "A Deluge of Verbs.." which may be of interest to you and others with reference to verbs in Urdu.

    http://groups.google.com/group/alt....e676280e7c?lnk=gst&q=southey#2d7610e676280e7c
     
  19. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
  20. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Whilst looking for izaafat usage by Ghalib in his diivaan, I came across several of his ash3aar where he has used Persian infinitives in their complete form. I might have missed more but I came across "chakiidan" (Tapaknaa) "shaniidan" (sun_naa), "shikastan" (TuuTnaa) and "shiguftan" (khilnaa)

    dar-kaar hai shiguftan-i-gulhaa-i-3aish ko
    subH-i-bahaar panbah-i-miinaa kaheN jise

    So, what I and other friends have said with regard to "talabiidan" (maaNgnaa) might not be correct because it too may be found in some poet's works.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013

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