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Urdu: فلاں ، عریاں written/pronounced with ں instead of ن

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Alfaaz, Jun 19, 2013.

  1. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    Background: عریاں and فلاں in UE
    It seems that both of these words are usually written and pronounced with a ں instead of ن.

    Question: Is there a specific reason for this and/or are the ن versions also used?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2013
  2. sb70012

    sb70012 Senior Member

    Azerbaijani
    ɔːrjɒn = عریان = Naked

    fɔːlɒn = فلان = Someone

    I see no reason that why they are pronounced in this way. Your question is not a grammar question. You just want to know why they are pronounced in that way. Well.... to tell the truth there are some rules that we need to obey without any reason. Look at these English words:

    Farm = frm
    Car = Kr

    Now can you tell me why (Farm and Car) are pronounced in that way? As far as I know it's a rule and there is no reason that why it's pronounced in that way. It's not a grammar question, it's pronounciation. We can't say that why this is pronounced in this way but the other is pronounced in that way. It's a rule.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2013
  3. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Alfaaz SaaHib, you have posed a very good question. These two threads might be of some help.

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2496402&highlight=nuun-i-Ghunnah

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2096868&highlight=nuun-i-Ghunnah

    In a nut shell, this is my view on this issue.

    1) Urdu, in its repertoire, has words which have nasal vowels, e.g jahaaN (Where there is smoke, there's fire)

    2) Urdu poetry's prosody is based on Arabic and especially Persian prosody rules. According to these rules Arabic and Persian words ending in a proper/full nuun after a long vowel can be nasalized for metrical reasons. 3uryaan, for example as far as I know is scanned as long and overlong syllables. (1 = short, 2 = long, 2+1 = overlong). 3ur-yaa-n =2,2,1)

    It might be that the poet only needs 2+2 and not 2+2+1. In this case 3uryaan will end up as 3uryaaN where the nasal nuun (nuun-i-Ghunnah) does not count. e.g.

    shauq har rang raqiib-i-sar-o-saamaaN niklaa
    Qais tasviir ke parde meN bhii 3uryaaN niklaa

    Ghalib

    https://groups.google.com/group/alt...hread/f4137e504c30d0d6?tvc=1&q=shauq+har+rang (See post 38)

    In this shi3r, saamaaN = saamaa, meN = me, 3uryaaN = 3uryaa

    3) Indic words ending in a nuun after a long vowel are never nasalized. I know of only one example. paan > paaN

    4) With this nasalization of Arabic and Persian words, it is quite possible that the trend has crept into prose and then speech.
     
  4. gagun Senior Member

    TS,india
    Telugu-TS, Deccani-TS
    I think it should be a rule that if a word containing long vowel and after this long vowel if there exists any noon/ن then it should be pronounced like a noon Ghunna/to nasalize(speak through the nose) that ending of word.i think here also the same rule might have been applied.
     
  5. sb70012

    sb70012 Senior Member

    Azerbaijani
    :thumbsup: I do agree. It's just a rule.
     
  6. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ There is no particular rule in prose/speech! Not every nuun-ending Arabic or Persian word is nasalized in Urdu speech. For example, Iran is never IraaN!
     
  7. sb70012

    sb70012 Senior Member

    Azerbaijani
    It's a rule in our Persian language. Well... both words are Persiand as well. It was just my opinion.

    My regards.
     
  8. gagun Senior Member

    TS,india
    Telugu-TS, Deccani-TS
    i also agree that Not every nuun-ending Arabic or Persian word is nasalized in Urdu
     
  9. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you. I know the language of this thread is Urdu but at the risk of asking an off-topic question, what Persian language rule do you have in mind?
     
  10. sb70012

    sb70012 Senior Member

    Azerbaijani
    I am not a linguist. It was my opinion. You are not obliged to accept my answer. Every one answers here according to what he knows. I respect yours and you respect mine.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2013
  11. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I believe there is no rule for Urdu and as far as Persian is concerned, I wasn't aware the contemporary language featured 'nuun-e-Ghunnah'. As discussed earlier it is likely to have been the case in classical poetry though. As far as Urdu is concerned it is most likely a convention, originating in poetry and expressions which originated in poems which went onto being accepted in speech.
     
  12. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I'd agree with what you say marrish SaaHib, esp. for Urdu. We are just living with a convention.
     
  13. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    Thanks to everyone for the comments and analyses!
     
  14. Sheikh_14 Senior Member

    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    In other words unlike Persian, Urdu affords flexibility in how one seeks to pronounce words such as Jahaan, aatish-fishaan etc? Both Jahaan and JahaaN in urdu are correct, whereas in Persian the nuun is always stressed upon?
     

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