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Urdu and Persian: ذیل

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by panjabigator, May 15, 2010.

  1. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    Could we discuss how to use this word? I've discovered it in this thread. Here is the direct quote so that you may see the context:
    My dictionary (20th Century Standard Urdu Dictionary) suggests: what follows; under-mentioned, details; ذیل کا the following; the undermentioned; ذیل میں adv. as follows; as below; as under; حسبِ ذیل adv: as follows, as below; as under; following; مفصلہِ ذیل adv. as per detail; as below; as under; ذیلی subsidiary

    Are there any other useful usages you can suggest? Is this a productive construction in Persian as well? Would ذیل be appropriate in the following context:

    "As per our agreement..."

    Thanks in advance,
    PG
     
  2. Cilquiestsuens Senior Member

    French
    I wonder why this thread has been overlooked....

    I don't have many more expressions at hand than the ones you suggest... Well there is mundarijah-e zail = mentioned below.
     
  3. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    Thanks Cilqui!
     
  4. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    For,
    "As per our agreement..." = In accordance with our agreement
    ہمارے سمجھوتے كے مطابق \ سمجھوتے كے تحت
    hamaare samjhaute ke muTaabiq / samjhaute ke taHt


    As for the rest:

    We use ذیل zail in Urdu and Persian most commonly with the meaning in the Arabic original <lower part, rearmost, bottom, supplement, appendix, retinue>.

    The most common usage in Urdu is as we are discussing, i.e. what follows, the following, below etc. but zail also has other meanings too.

    For example:
    1) jamaa3at جَماعَت, garoh گَرُوہ, zumrah زُمرَہ = company, group, retinue

    2) Dhamiimah ضَمِیمَہ/ tatimmah تَتِمَّہ = supplement / appendix

    3) daaman دامن = skirt

    میں ڈھونڈوں سایہ طوبٰی کو کیوں میدانِ محشر میں
    مجھے کافی ہے ذیلِ سیّدِ ابرار کا سایہ

    mai.n D-huunDuu.n saaya-e-Tuubaa ko kiyuu.n maydaan-e-maHshar mei.n
    mujhe kaafii hai zail-e-sayyad-e-abraar kaa saayah


    Why on the day judgement should I seek the shade (protection) of Tuubaa
    The shade (protection) of the skirt of sayyad-e-abraar would suffice !


    Here the poet is using ذیل zail to mean skirt / lower part of a robe.

    4) niiche kaa HiSSahنیچے کا حصہ = the lower part

    The last is very much in line with the general meaning we are considering: what follows / what is below / the lower part:

    آج كل ملك كے ذیل كا حصہ زیر آب ہے
    aaj kal mulk ke zail kaa HiSSah zer-e-aab hai

    At present the lower part of the country is flooded / underwater.

    Used in Persian too with this meaning:

    ذیل نامہ را امضاء كنید
    ziil-e-naameh raa imzaa kuniid!
    Please sign at the bottom of the letter!

    امضاء كنندہ ذیل imzaa kunanda-e-ziil (Persian) = دستخط كنندہ ذیل dastxaT kunnada-e-zail (Urdu) = the undersigned


     
  5. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    In the "Hindi/Urdu: Use of the Bindi" thread I quoted the well known and respected Indian intellectual Professor Alok Rai, author of a landmark book "Hindi Nationalism" from an interview that he gave to a fellow colleague from the University of Delhi, Professor Shahid Amin. He was bemoaning the omission of "bindis" by Hindi printers and publishers which he termed as "vandalism" and gave an example of the way the seventh President of India 's name, Zail Singh with a "ja" instead of "ja" with a bindi underneath it.(ذیل سنگھ , ज़ैल सिंह not जेल सिंह !)

    Here is the quote.

    "The ultimate irony is that till the day he died, Zail Singh, the President of India could never get his name written properly in Hindi. They would never put a bindi under "ja", it would always be "Jail Singh"..

    A member of this forum has provided a rather pathetic explanation that his name was spelt "Jail Singh" because he had been in a jail/gaol!! That apparently happened in 1938, under British rule when we know that many people were put in jail for fighting British Rule. But the interesting thing is that in the above mentioned thread (post 31 dated 22/02/2012) I had mentioned the same gentleman Zail Singh but no one then indicated that this was due to his having been in a jail!

    Enough of the background! As far as Urdu is concerned we know how the word is spelt and its meanings have been expounded upon by Faylasoof SaaHib in post 4. In what sense is "zail" used by Hindi speakers and writers; zail (or even jail) rhyming with mail (grime/dirt) and not jail/gaol (prison)!



     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012

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