Urdu and Punjabi: paaghal پاغل

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Cilquiestsuens, Dec 16, 2008.

  1. Cilquiestsuens Senior Member

    French
    Hello,

    I was surprised to hear Karachites pronouncing this word : paagal, by replacing the gaaf with a ghayn... which is according to my limited knowledge a very common feature of Lahori Urdu (influence of Punjabi)....

    Is this a Karachi accent or a Lahori one ?
     
  2. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    Lahori Panjabi speakers say <paGal>? I would assume not. I know of a Panjabi speaker (who is a very knowledgeable Urdu speaker too) tell me once that no native Panjabi speaker ever pronounces the qaaf or ghayn in Panjabi, so it seems unlikely that they would overcompensate this sound in Panjabi. In any event, I look forward to reading replies.

    As a side note, Cilqui, do you currently reside in PK?

    Panjabi has another lighter word for "crazy," often denoting "silly": <jhallaa>.
     
  3. Cilquiestsuens Senior Member

    French
    Paaghal (with a ghain) is a very common 'mispronounciation' here in Lahore.....

    I was surprised to hear it recently from Karachites too....

    In Lahori Urdu / Punjabi, the gaaf between two vowels (I would say, especially two a's, whether zabar or alif) is often pronounced as a ghayn... But not everyone does this 'mistake'...

    I will ask a friend of mine who knows better, but I've noticed this pronounciation among a number of chinioti's....
     
  4. BP. Senior Member

    Karachi
    Urdu
    Never heard this one before.
     
  5. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    I just stumbled on this thread again and I was struck by this point. Is this restricted to a particular socioeconomic class? Is it only intervocalic? What about in a phrase like دو گڈّیاں: could we hear a غ in lieu of a گ?

    Cheers,
    PG
     
  6. Koozagar Senior Member

    Urdu
    Being a Lahori, I can testify to Cliqui's observation. Lahoris do say Paghal with a ' غ'. In fact, until this moment, I thought I was correct and those who pronounced it with گ made the same mistake as those who said 'gulaab' instead of 'ghulab'. Or am I wrong on that one too?:)

     
  7. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    I think, prescriptively, it's گلاب and پاگل, however I like these other pronunciations a lot :) Is this done in both Punjabi and Urdu?

    And in which words does this occur?
     
  8. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I assume you are talking about street language! The educated Lahoris I know say it with a distinct گ gaaf rather than a غ ghayn.

    This is how native Urdu speakers pronounce them! If, as Cilqui mentioned, a Karachiite (karaachii waalaa) said it with a غ then it still doesn't mean a lot because that is such a cosmopolitan city that one doesn't always know the linguistic background of the speaker. Many linguistic and ethnic groups are present in large numbers in Karachi.
     
  9. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    I agree with you Faylasoof. I was, in my head, comparing this گ and غpartial merger to the Hyderabadi merger of ق and خ (though in the latter, it's a full merger).
     
  10. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    When speaking Punjabi, I would instinctively pronounce this word with a Ghain! [And PG Sahib. Punjabis from our side of the border, even those who are completely illiterate, would never say "gam" for "Gham", "khat" for "Khat", jid for zid and phareb for fareb!].

    There are many other words where kh goes to Kh, g to Gh, ph to f as (in fer) and j to z. Interestingly, we never pronounce phalii as falii, phul-gobhii as ful-gobhii. This ph to f seems much more common in the Indian Punjab and amongst Gujarati speakers.

     
  11. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    Thanks for this information. I'm starting to see the trend based off of other conversations we've had.
     
  12. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I was listening to a Youtube video in which Navjot Singh Sidhu was a guest speaker, speaking in Hindi. He pronounced "gulaab" as "Ghulaab". I don't know if the Patiala Punjabis (Patiala being his birth place) pronounce g as Gh for some words or not.
     
  13. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I can but testify that Ghayn is indeed used in the word paagal, when speaking [some varieties of] Punjabi, but it is not so that this word has *always* Ghayn in it. It is used mostly to add strength and emphasis to the word, otherwise it is with gaaf. I don't think I've ever heard it in Urdu. I am also not aware of other words with gaaf in such a position that induce the change to Ghayn so my answer to the question whether do gaDDiyaaN is likely to become do GhaDDiyaaN is no.
     
  14. hindiurdu Senior Member

    Hindi-Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri
    I think paaGhal and paaGhalxaanaa are pretty common for west up people. So is daax-xaanaa.
     
  15. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Never heard of "Daax-xaanaa". "Daa-xaanaa" yes!!
     
  16. hindiurdu Senior Member

    Hindi-Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri
    Daa-xaanaa too, but I am pretty sure many say 'Daax_xaanaa', with what sounds like a geminated 'x'.
     
  17. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    ^ It would be the case of assimilation, also haven't heard a double x.
     

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